SOUND ON SOUND

[Sam Spoons]

Good post Mike :thumbup:

I was told for the size I am doing I don't need a monitor
You don't see them on karaoke or open Mic nights do you

Monitors are necessary for the singer to hear their own voice/instrument over a loud band (or audience), or to hear any other muso's instruments that are too far away or acoustically quiet/silent to be heard (acoustic band on a large festival stage for example)

Any singer using backing tracks needs to be able to hear those tracks, most competent karaoke systems have some kind of monitoring. edit :- this can simply be accomplished by the position of the FOH speakers though.

A singer/guitarist doesn't need monitors, they are (usually) used to playing/practicing acoustically.

[Wonks]

The only other option is to position the speakers behind the singer. This really limits the volume that can be achieved before feedback will occur, and if the singer is moving around rather than staying still, it's almost certain to occur at some point even then. But it is not to be recommended.

If you can't hear yourself properly, you are likely to sing badly, ut of key and out of time. There may be karaoke setups with no monitors, but that's one reason why you get so many bad vocal performances (apart from lack of talent and alcohol).

[Mike Stranks]

Whoa!

The guy's still working through FoH issues.... let's park 'monitors' for now... :)

I'm working through stuff with him and keeping monitors out of the picture for now.

[Sam Spoons]

:blush:

[Wonks]

Sometimes you've just got to dive in with the facts.

[Watchmaker]

Another wrinkle is there is nearly as much junk gear as there is junk opinions like mine :)

One thing I have learned, gear agnostic, is: you get what you pay for, usually and there is always a minimum investment threshold below which you've just wasted your money. I recently bought a little PA (Yahama MGP16x and JBL PRX810) for about $1,400 USD. I over bought for my current needs. I consider this upper mid-range gear. I strongly caution against the desire to "get a good deal", or "just get something that'll work for now" as I've always had reason to regret it later.

Another reason to consider punching above your weight is that junk gear has no resale value. If music is important to you, invest in it wisely and you will reap the dividends. Under invest and you're likely to spend a lot of time being annoyed and frustrated.

[Mike Stranks]

Sometimes you've just got to dive in with the facts.

... but not necessarily all of them! :D

[Wonks]

Maybe not in depth, but you do sometimes have to at least mention them and state their importance before going back to basics so that the pupil doesn't think they can be ignored when mentioned.

[Mike Stranks]

We shall have to agree to disagree...

IMO there really can be Too Much Information... and my PM correspondence of late bears that out.

I can't say I have had the same experiences as you Andy regarding the hosts. But I can tell you for now manchester is full of useless ideal brain dead snotty little @#$%&, that are not great singers or song writers at all but think they are. Whilst on the other hand karaoke hosts seam to be on the same level of musical skill but with our the ego of there heads up there asses. There is not one karaoke host that I hold a grudge against! But open Mic and busking on the streets and 200 quid a night Pratt bands well where do I start. Want prof that 99.9% of missions are all BS then head over to join my band .co.uk to find out!

Sorry don't watch main stream media at all as it's all BS! But I do know who Donald Rumsfeld is
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TsMCeypay4M

But having seen that image that Sam posted of the speaker box, I can tell you for now I won't be going into Dawson's again

I must admit I have had instants where I could not hear the backing tracks on open Mic nights well. But people have told me it's more likely the host did not have the mix volumes set correctly, but since I could not hear what the audience where hearing I just don't know the answer to that. As they are generally set up for a singer and there acoustic guitar not a singer and mp3 backing tracks. But What about a wireless ear piece that plays the backing tracks only, might work so long as the out channel on the mixer has out channels for each individual in channel or could I not take the sound from the input hear. But you could have a wireless ear piece with both you and the backing tracks, this is how they do it in recording studios

PS uselles Dawson's said I don't need a monitor as well

[ef37a]

How much information and at what technical level to give the uninitiated is always going to be a problem on forums. The trouble starts with the fact that you have no idea at the beginning of a thread what the level of education or experience the OP has. Many people can be highly educated and skilled in one area but complete numpties in another. For instance I worked with a factory full of computer graduates some with electrical engineering degrees but none had clue one about PC sound and had never heard of MIDI!

Such people are however good at "learning to learn" and would get to grips with audio matters PDQ. Then there are people, GOOD people! Who do not have a technical brain and find it hard to grasp some concepts (though how they cope with modern phones and cars GOKnows! ) .

My approach has always been to try to give as complete a picture as I can. Often the poster comes back a bit boggled but I then invite them to give specific points that they don't understand and then try to break it down. Sometimes a thankless task. SOS is far better than some forums in that we don't seem to get so many one shot "drive byes".

Mike is to be commended of course in taking the OP under his PM wing but of course that information exchange is lost to the forum. This point was discussed in the Lounge a while ago?

Dave.

[Mike Stranks]

How much information and at what technical level to give the uninitiated is always going to be a problem on forums. The trouble starts with the fact that you have no idea at the beginning of a thread what the level of education or experience the OP has. Many people can be highly educated and skilled in one area but complete numpties in another. For instance I worked with a factory full of computer graduates some with electrical engineering degrees but none had clue one about PC sound and had never heard of MIDI!

Such people are however good at "learning to learn" and would get to grips with audio matters PDQ. Then there are people, GOOD people! Who do not have a technical brain and find it hard to grasp some concepts (though how they cope with modern phones and cars GOKnows! ) .

My approach has always been to try to give as complete a picture as I can. Often the poster comes back a bit boggled but I then invite them to give specific points that they don't understand and then try to break it down. Sometimes a thankless task. SOS is far better than some forums in that we don't seem to get so many one shot "drive byes".

Mike is to be commended of course in taking the OP under his PM wing but of course that information exchange is lost to the forum. This point was discussed in the Lounge a while ago?

Dave.

Thanks for your thoughtful post Dave. I do understand where you're coming from.

As far as PMs go, I quite agree about off-forum help and advice and have often steered people back into a forum thread when what they want to know can just as easily be picked up there in a thread that's still simple and IMO 'on track'.

In these two recent cases, it's been clear to me that people are really struggling with techy-talk and numerous options being presented to them. If they're reading this I hope they won't mind me saying that they have no technical understanding and are just starting to dip a toe in the water of live-sound or recording. They'd found the options being presented, the technical explanations, the 'added-extras' that people contribute (mea culpa in one case) overwhelming and totally bewildering. Even when something's been explained more than once they've still not grasped the concept. The simplest of concepts are fundamentally misunderstood. In that situation I do step in to seek to give a steer - back-tracking several times if necessary - and sure that no well-meaning forum contributor will cause further OP bewilderment. In some cases, the collective mind is not the best mind! :)

Back to my latest PM... :D

[Sam Spoons]

Again great post Mike, (and Dave) :clap:

[Sam Spoons]

I can't say I have had the same experiences as you Andy regarding the hosts. But I can tell you for now manchester is full of useless ideal brain dead snotty little @#$%&, that are not great singers or song writers at all but think they are. Whilst on the other hand karaoke hosts seam to be on the same level of musical skill but with our the ego of there heads up there asses. There is not one karaoke host that I hold a grudge against! But open Mic and busking on the streets and 200 quid a night Pratt bands well where do I start. Want prof that 99.9% of missions are all BS then head over to join my band .co.uk to find out!

Sorry don't watch main stream media at all as it's all BS! But I do know who Donald Rumsfeld is
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TsMCeypay4M" target="phpbbpopup

But having seen that image that Sam posted of the speaker box, I can tell you for now I won't be going into Dawson's again

I must admit I have had instants where I could not hear the backing tracks on open Mic nights well. But people have told me it's more likely the host did not have the mix volumes set correctly, but since I could not hear what the audience where hearing I just don't know the answer to that. As they are generally set up for a singer and there acoustic guitar not a singer and mp3 backing tracks. But What about a wireless ear piece that plays the backing tracks only, might work so long as the out channel on the mixer has out channels for each individual in channel or could I not take the sound from the input hear. But you could have a wireless ear piece with both you and the backing tracks, this is how they do it in recording studios

PS uselles Dawson's said I don't need a monitor as well

:shock: late night, post beer rant?

[ef37a]

Re the "beer rant"?

I have banged this drum before here and elsewhere. You get the goods and staff you PAY for!

I know nothing of Dawsons save they are obviously a bricks and mortar shop and I guess struggling against the tide of internet retailing. I will also bet the price of a 3mtr mic cable that a fair percentage of their enquiries are from people who have no intention of buying from them!

I come from a family store retail background (not MY family!) and as the Magnet type stores took off we had a steady stream of timewasters who wanted the information but also the 20% from the pile 'em high outlets.
If you want well trained, enthusiastic (not just about their commision!) staff they need to be paid a decent wedge and it is the customer who foots that bill.

An example, sort of. I recently found a small USB mixer that had solder pad routing options. I emailed one of our largest online reatilers asking if they would be able to setup such a mixer to a client's requirements? No, it seems they either don't have the skilled personell in house or there is no money left in the sale to pay for the time involved.

Dave.

[Wonks]

Dawsons are a chain, but they vary greatly in quality of service (good to bad) from shop to shop. It is really all down to the shop manager as to the level of staff they employ and keep (though ultimately down to the chain management not pressing for higher standards). I've only used the one in Reading through necessity of needing something quickly, not choice (but once through boredom). Knowledge of product there seemed to be pretty low in all the staff, even during the week; rather like the dreaded 'Saturday' staff of old.

[ef37a]

Ah! See now Wonks they are almost ALL "Saturday" staff on zero hours contracts.
The staff at my local Maplins were varied in their knowledge but quite a number were pretty PC cute it seemed to me. They were all very cheerful and helpful, a point I always stressed on the odd occasion I complained to HQ, usually about "web only" stock. Their powers that be never seemed to grasp that if I wanted to wait three days I could buy a 1TB HDD cheaper from almost any other online retailer!

Saddly missed.

Dave.