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the latest Behringer-gate

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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Arpangel » Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:55 am

desmond wrote:
ef37a wrote:Can you more specific re "interface compromised" please?

They are very small, and a bit fiddly.
(Not as fiddly as the Roland Boutiques though...)

If you compare the size of a Minimoog, with the Berry version, you'll see the difference...

Yes that's it, this applies to the "D" a lot, my friend who has one agrees that it's not so easy to do certain things, on the Moog Mini you have very fine conttol over detuning and filter sweeps/resonance owing to the large knobs, also, psychologically small and fiddly can sound small and fiddly, there's something about interacting with a nice looking wood cabinet and big knobs, that's where I think they need to address this a bit, even if it does add to the price it would be worth it.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Sam Spoons » Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:06 am

I'm just happy to get all those iconic sounds at a price I can afford.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby nathanscribe » Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:41 am

I got my VC340 a couple of days ago and am very impressed – build is solid, sound is good and feels authentic to my ears (for reference, I've never had a VP-330 but I do have an old RS stringer). So though I can't compare directly to the old VP, I do think Behringer have done a good job. Two things though:

1) The ensemble circuit. I don't really know how close it is to the VP-330, but I do know the VP went through a couple of revisions and I suspect Behringer have had to use other BBDs than the ones in the old machine to get this effect, which, knowing BBDs, will give a different tone. But I'd need to side-by-side to study that. Still sounds good though, no worries here!

2) The keyboard length. The VP had 4 octaves, the VC has 3 and an octave switch (two positions). Three octaves of playing surface might hobble some playing needs, especially if you want very low and very high notes together. BUT. You can play the whole 48 notes over MIDI. Plug in a controller keyboard and you get all 4 octaves at once. Any notes lower than bottom available C just play that C again, and any notes higher than the top available C repeat that top C. The pitch slider still functions to give an octave of downward detune at maximum, so those 4 octaves can be pitched down from there giving a total range of 5 octaves of possible notes, though with only a 4 octave spread at any one time. I'm guessing this is how the original worked as well, with its 4 octave keyboard.

I also thought the output was a little quiet until I started layering the tones, then it needs backing off a bit. But the build is good, the sound is good, and I'm very happy with it.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby DGL. » Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:09 pm

The BBD's used in the ensemble circuit will be from Behringer's parent company Coolaudio and dependant on the original ones used could be the same or at least similar primarily as Coolaudio only clone a select few BBD chips.

As a side note, if you open one of the new Boss Waza Craft delay pedals guess who's chips are inside :D
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby nathanscribe » Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:16 pm

My notes tell me the 2nd revision VP-330 used MN3004 and MN3009 BBDs, which are 512- and 256-stage BBDs respectively. I know CoolAudio revived the 3207 and 3205, which a) run on different supplies, and b) are 1024- and 4096-stage respectively. I also know XVive have recently (more recently than the VC340 appeared) revived the MN3009. I also see the original version of the VP-330 used SAD512 and SAD1024 BBDs, which are different again to the later revision. All these changes would require changes to the control circuit in order to maintain the same time delay, otherwise the tone would be quite different.

Maybe when the warranty's out I'll take a look inside and see what they've done, but for now I'm just going to play it. :D
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby The Elf » Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:08 pm

nathanscribe wrote:The VP had 4 octaves, the VC has 3 and an octave switch (two positions). Three octaves of playing surface might hobble some playing needs...
I don't understand why Behringer would go to all the trouble of recreating this classic machine, get it so right in almost every way (it's even blessed with an internal PSU - thank you!)... only to hobble it with this daft limitation. :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Rich Hanson » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:28 am

I had a DeepMind 6 for a while and for whatever I reason I never found the three octave keyboard restrictive on that, but I do find it a little restrictive on the VC340. Possibly because I treated the DM6 more as a lead instrument playing single lines, whereas the VC340 is obviously geared towards polyphonic parts.

I suspect like many manufacturers they are building to a size as well as a price, and to be honest if that is the case I'd much rather have three octaves of full size keys than four octaves of mini keys. A bit Hobson's Choice though, innit.

However, the sound is gorgeous and you can tear mine out of my cold dead hands :D
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby ef37a » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:09 am

Now don't shoot cos I only know a bit about amps and stuff. Keyboards are a a bit of a mystery.

However, if you have just 3 octaves could you get a small, 25 key say, controller and run it as the "left hand" placing it ideally left but could go on top, under?

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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby The Elf » Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:05 am

Of course there are solutions, but if it had been done properly we wouldn't be having to look for solutions! We would simply be lauding a job well done.

As it is, if I have to hook up another keyboard then it might as well have been a module.

Not a show-stopper, but just such a silly, avoidable problem.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Sam Spoons » Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:12 am

A bit like The Doors classic rig of a Rhodes Piano Bass on top of a Vox Continental.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Escapegoat » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:35 pm

I think that Behringer, Roland, Korg, DSI, etc have all spotted that with 0% interest rates everywhere, synth profits are fattest among the got-more-£££s-than-space customers.

The small incremental cost of a 4-oct keyboard over a 3-oct keyboard is completely overshadowed by there being a far smaller market.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby The Elf » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:43 pm

An extra octave would generate fewer sales? I find that very hard to believe!
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Sam Spoons » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:20 pm

Sounds distinctly improbable to me too. OTOH if I could find a full sized 44 note midi keyboard with a Berry Model D sized slot in the top and mod/pitch wheels I'd be very happy (I'd want it a Berry money not MiniMoog money mind you.....)
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Dan LB » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:21 pm

Sam Spoons wrote:Sounds distinctly improbable to me too. OTOH if I could find a full sized 44 note midi keyboard with a Berry Model D sized slot in the top and mod/pitch wheels I'd be very happy (I'd want it a Berry money not MiniMoog money mind you.....)

OK I know it’s not 44 keys but......
https://waldorfmusic.com/en/kb37
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Sam Spoons » Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:25 pm

Yup, I was aware of that and it was the very device that prompted my "Berry money not MiniMoog money" comment :blush: It does look great and, for a non keyboard player, I'm pretty finicky about keyboard actions but that one should be lovely. Sadly £600 is too much, maybe I'll build something with a cheap controller.
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