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Re: RTFM

Postby ef37a » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:36 pm

ConcertinaChap wrote:So you're saying the pubs were designed for people to sing in? If not then you've rather lost me.

CC

Maybe! I am saying that singing sounds far better in a building and that is technology. One of the main uses and drivers for building development was religion and chant and then instrumental music was a big part of that.

Dave.
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Re: RTFM

Postby ConcertinaChap » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:53 pm

Sorry, I've sung in a field before now and in a cemetery on a couple of occasions and unless you want to claim coffins in support of your claim of applicable technology I have to say I still think your case is tenuous.

The point at issue is you are claiming any available nearby technology installed for whatever purpose is necessary for singing when it transparently isn't. By the same argument a pacemaker may be needed to keep you alive and thus would be essential should you wish to paint a wall, but I wouldn't go looking for one in B&Q.

CC
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Re: RTFM

Postby ef37a » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:32 pm

ConcertinaChap wrote:Sorry, I've sung in a field before now and in a cemetery on a couple of occasions and unless you want to claim coffins in support of your claim of applicable technology I have to say I still think your case is tenuous.

The point at issue is you are claiming any available nearby technology installed for whatever purpose is necessary for singing when it transparently isn't. By the same argument a pacemaker may be needed to keep you alive and thus would be essential should you wish to paint a wall, but I wouldn't go looking for one in B&Q.

CC
Oh! Was you it YOU in drag on that hill in SoM?!

Heh! No, tenuous? Don't think so, not being clear? Maybe. I am saying yes, of course you can sing in a field and H E could bang on any old log he liked. What I mean is, as soon as we start to make music we want to improve it and that takes technology.

In fact every activity we perform, even the act of speaking is codified by rules and rules means organization and organization is SCIENCE and science is the handmaiden of technology.

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Re: RTFM

Postby ConcertinaChap » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:46 pm

ef37a wrote:organization is SCIENCE and science is the handmaiden of technology.

Don't get me started on the relationship between science and technology or we'll be here for hours, and that's ignoring the bit about organisation being science! Dave, it's no good, this is at least a three pint job down the pub and maybe more to get this lot sorted ...

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Re: RTFM

Postby ef37a » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:59 pm

ConcertinaChap wrote:
ef37a wrote:organization is SCIENCE and science is the handmaiden of technology.

Don't get me started on the relationship between science and technology or we'll be here for hours, and that's ignoring the bit about organisation being science! Dave, it's no good, this is at least a three pint job down the pub and maybe more to get this lot sorted ...

Well, bit of "freeballing" there but you sure as H can't have ANY science without organisation! And mathematics is its big sister!

Pub chat? All for it. I don't drink so I can drive!
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Re: RTFM

Postby OneWorld » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:19 am

Well lets put it to the test.

I am new to Cubase 10, at the daft stage of learning an app's new layout whilst in the middle of a project - ho hum

In C10 as with previous Cubase versions you double click to open an in place editor, and in C10 you can change the Preferences to get a full screen editor - easy, but how do you close the in place editor when it displays in 'lower zone' Where is the 'X' that closes a window? Looks like Steinberg has jettisoned established design and decided to how the means of closing the lower zone window.

I am trying to find it in the manual, but nope, no mention, so the best choice is the internet and SOS is the first stop knowledge shop.

As far reading manuals themselves. Imagine you're at the mixing desk and want to find a button for something. You have the manual lay to hand but at your side is an expert with the answer. What would you do, meander through the manual or simply ask the expert?

BTW - how do I close the lower zone window?

Got it, CTRL+ALT+E
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Re: RTFM

Postby ConcertinaChap » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:02 am

ef37a wrote: I don't drink so I can drive!

Ah, well that's your problem. All this would be a lot clearer for a couple of pints of Crudgington's Old Misty.

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Re: RTFM

Postby ef37a » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:58 am

OneWorld wrote:Well lets put it to the test.

I am new to Cubase 10, at the daft stage of learning an app's new layout whilst in the middle of a project - ho hum

In C10 as with previous Cubase versions you double click to open an in place editor, and in C10 you can change the Preferences to get a full screen editor - easy, but how do you close the in place editor when it displays in 'lower zone' Where is the 'X' that closes a window? Looks like Steinberg has jettisoned established design and decided to how the means of closing the lower zone window.

I am trying to find it in the manual, but nope, no mention, so the best choice is the internet and SOS is the first stop knowledge shop.

As far reading manuals themselves. Imagine you're at the mixing desk and want to find a button for something. You have the manual lay to hand but at your side is an expert with the answer. What would you do, meander through the manual or simply ask the expert?

BTW - how do I close the lower zone window?

Got it, CTRL+ALT+E

Well One, that depends. IF said expert is completely brassed off with all the daft questions he has been asked throughout the day and has wisps of steam issuing from ears, you might wish to not press him further and look it up!

Dave.
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Re: RTFM

Postby MOF » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:45 pm

I started out with my parents’ Mono tape recorder and later bought myself a stereo (SOS capable) recorder. My first Uni’ holiday job funded my Teac 4 track, mixer and Sm58 mic’.
I bought magazines such as Home Studio Recording and Studio Sound and effectively self taught myself through reading and experimentation.
In 1984 I was fortunate to get a job in TV and had formal training in sound engineering.
Later when SOS magazine started and I got into the Atari 1040 and Pro24, very soon to be replaced by Cubase, I was able to get into Midi, this time by reading the manuals and reading useful hints and tips in SOS.
I agree with the OP that too many people expect this knowledge and expertise to be just given to them.
Now that there is so much information out there on the internet you’d think that they could find the answers to their queries. I would like to think that this forum was here to help people who are genuinely stuck.
There are so many books (SOS shop plug) to give starters a comprehensive grounding in what has become a more complex technical area.
I remember the steep learning curve when I moved to Logic Audio and an Apple computer (before Youtube and the SOS forum) I had to read the manuals and ask a mate who’d persuaded me to move over to them.
It takes time and patience to master the technology.
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Re: RTFM

Postby ManFromGlass » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:38 pm

It does. Although composing/producing music is mostly a solitary activity for smaller and home studios. In the beginning it was quite frustrating to have your process stopped by not being able to figure out a simple thing, like minimize a full screen window. The more one works with the gear, the fewer those moments.
I’m thankful for those pre-internet moments where I could watch over a more experienced person shoulder. Now I’m appreciative of those YouTube’s for more tips, but also ways not to work.

Is it a curse that our gear can be so flexible?
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Re: RTFM

Postby OneWorld » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:54 pm

ef37a wrote:
OneWorld wrote:Well lets put it to the test.

I am new to Cubase 10, at the daft stage of learning an app's new layout whilst in the middle of a project - ho hum

In C10 as with previous Cubase versions you double click to open an in place editor, and in C10 you can change the Preferences to get a full screen editor - easy, but how do you close the in place editor when it displays in 'lower zone' Where is the 'X' that closes a window? Looks like Steinberg has jettisoned established design and decided to how the means of closing the lower zone window.

I am trying to find it in the manual, but nope, no mention, so the best choice is the internet and SOS is the first stop knowledge shop.

As far reading manuals themselves. Imagine you're at the mixing desk and want to find a button for something. You have the manual lay to hand but at your side is an expert with the answer. What would you do, meander through the manual or simply ask the expert?

BTW - how do I close the lower zone window?

Got it, CTRL+ALT+E

Well One, that depends. IF said expert is completely brassed off with all the daft questions he has been asked throughout the day and has wisps of steam issuing from ears, you might wish to not press him further and look it up!

Dave.

if if if.....if my aunt fanny had a set of wheels she'd be a bus, there's always the exception to the rule, but in the main part I find people of a friendly helpful nature as you'll find here when you ask a question
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Re: RTFM

Postby ConcertinaChap » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:45 pm

Well said, Sir. The proof of the pudding is that the People Who Know here are, in the main, very willing to help whatever the rights and wrongs of it. I think you have to look in Another Place if you want to see explosions of impatience and long may it remain so.

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Re: RTFM

Postby ef37a » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:09 pm

ConcertinaChap wrote:Well said, Sir. The proof of the pudding is that the People Who Know here are, in the main, very willing to help whatever the rights and wrongs of it. I think you have to look in Another Place if you want to see explosions of impatience and long may it remain so.

CC
I totally agree and I hope my slightly "off beat" tone does not give anyone the impression that I shall be any other than as patient and helpful as I trust people think I have been thus far?

My ONLY reservation is that after the help is given I think it only fair for "the helpers" to perhaps gently suggest the newb reads up a little bit?

The fact is, in many cases the enquirer often has no concept of how to frame a question properly and rarely gives very much in the way of information. How many times is it that just getting the make and model number of the offending device is a trial? Even discovering "mac or PC and OS" is often like drawing teeth!

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Re: RTFM

Postby desmond » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:01 pm

ef37a wrote:The fact is, in many cases the enquirer often has no concept of how to frame a question properly and rarely gives very much in the way of information. How many times is it that just getting the make and model number of the offending device is a trial? Even discovering "mac or PC and OS" is often like drawing teeth!

Yes, this can be frustrating - you want to help, but you have at least four posts of back and forth before the OP actually gives out any useful details at all. Otherwise it's just "my thing doesn't work", and then an expectation that someone else should make the effort of collating the details of the OP's problem.

However, while in some cases it's laziness, as you say, some people just don't have much of a concept of how to organise and frame details to be useful, so you can't blame those folks, at least. However, I do expect someone wanting help to be at least open to engage in a dialog. Sometimes people get frustrated when you don't tell them which button to press to immediately fix it - almost as if they think you're holding out on them. If it starts to become a fight to try to help, then I'd rather put my effort elsewhere...
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Re: RTFM

Postby Arpangel » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:39 am

desmond wrote:
ef37a wrote:Yes, this can be frustrating - you want to help, but you have at least four posts of back and forth before the OP actually gives out any useful details at all. Otherwise it's just "my thing doesn't work", and then an expectation that someone else should make the effort of collating the details of the OP's problem.

However, while in some cases it's laziness, as you say, some people just don't have much of a concept of how to organise and frame details to be useful, so you can't blame those folks, at least. However, I do expect someone wanting help to be at least open to engage in a dialog. Sometimes people get frustrated when you don't tell them which button to press to immediately fix it - almost as if they think you're holding out on them. If it starts to become a fight to try to help, then I'd rather put my effort elsewhere...

You've said what I wanted to say much better than I did in my original post.
Framing what you need say properly is essential. If you don't know the terminology, or the back from the front of a mixer then it's highly likely you won't stand a chance of driving whatever bit of kit you're wrestling with to get the results you want. If you're trying to offer help in these circumstances it's like talking down a plane and not knowing what plane it is or even where it is. And, at the last moment after many posts someone will give you a golden clue as to what it is that's causing them problems, and you think "if only they'd mentioned it sooner"
In this age of YouTube, you can watch a video that will most times, clear things up for you.
But equipment and music production issues are so unique and specific to the individual, you need to actually deal with someone who's had a wide range of experience, or a team of one to one experts, we are still fortunate to have places like SOS who offer this, there are others, but SOS is still the most laid back, and knowledgeable of them all IMO.
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