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Panning for send effects? What is a true stereo plugin? Which reverbs are true?

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Panning for send effects? What is a true stereo plugin? Which reverbs are true?

Postby DC-Choppah » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:01 am

The latest mag mentioned in the regular ProTools section, that Protools has a preference to have the panning of insert effects follow the track?

Wait. What. Inserts have panning?

Oh I see now they do. Man I never used that control before, and I always had the preference ticked off. So that means my insert effects were always panned fully wide. I am used to tweaking the sound that way I guess.

Playing with this by ear, I can see now where this would be very useful to me, and I even have a project in the works where I'd like to use it.

The elusive sound I seek is this: instruments recorded in a great studio each in their own room, then placed on a stage where the position sounds natural and physically real.

But, each source was really recorded in my project studio in dead space.

To that end, I give each piece (piano, drums, guitar, horn, violin, etc.) its own reverb using an insert effect to simulate the recording space like 'Studio A' and make each room sound different, giving each piece his own unique space, reverb eq, and print it onto the track as if it was part of the recording process. I use Waves TrueVerb here as an insert the way Waves says to use it.

Then I want to place the pieces on the sound stage and give them a location. Piano is to the left and forward, drums are right of center in back, the horn is all the way to the right and forward, violin is in between piano and drums, etc.

The Waves Imager is really good for this placement. You keep the track panned wide and use Imager to adjust the width, direction, rotation, assymetry etc. It compensates for less than perfect recording. I just use my ears until it sounds natural.



Questions:

Now, how to add reverb to this to sound like they are in the same beautiful concert hall?

Is this a case where I should pan the send effect? Should it follow what I did in Imager?

Reading about this I see folks talk about 'true stereo' plugin are the only ones that the send panning matters? So what is this true stereo? Some are fake?

I would like to add a reverb that is good for this specific application. Which one? Which reverbs out there are true stereo?
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Re: Panning for send effects? What is a true stereo plugin? Which reverbs are true?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:48 am

DC-Choppah wrote:Reading about this I see folks talk about 'true stereo' plugin are the only ones that the send panning matters? So what is this true stereo? Some are fake?

A 'true stereo' reverb is one in which the early reflections are generated to reflect the panned source positions in a natural way. So a source that has been panned well to the left would generate a different early reflections pattern to one that was panned centrally or to the right, because it is closer to the virtual room boundaries on the left hand side, and so the spatial pattern of reflections would be different from a source in the middle of the virtual room. Some of the 'ray-tracing' reverb algorithms from the likes of TC can do this quite well... as can some of the stereo convolution reverbs.

However, it's a pretty subtle effect, and if you're already generating separate 'in room' reverbs for each individual source it's probably a bit pointless too as you already have a set of early reflections for each source in place.

H
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Re: Panning for send effects? What is a true stereo plugin? Which reverbs are true?

Postby mammy » Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:52 am

I highly recommend to use ‘waves Rverb plugin.it is perfect for everything.
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Re: Panning for send effects? What is a true stereo plugin? Which reverbs are true?

Postby DC-Choppah » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:19 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:However, it's a pretty subtle effect, and if you're already generating separate 'in room' reverbs for each individual source it's probably a bit pointless too as you already have a set of early reflections for each source in place.
H

Thank you kindly for that. Saves me the time and trouble in tracking down something complicated that won't sound any different anyways.

Your willingness to share your experience with us is humbly appreciated.

I think I am going to go back to being blissfully ignorant of the fact that sends have a panning control.
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Re: Panning for send effects? What is a true stereo plugin? Which reverbs are true?

Postby James Perrett » Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:09 pm

I'm still old school and use reverb on busses with each bus being stereo and the sends being post fade and post pan so that the track's position in the mix is the same as its position in the reverb send signal. I find that using fewer different reverbs creates a more convincing sound stage than individual reverbs on everything. A typical mix uses a couple of reverb busses and one or two delay busses.
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Re: Panning for send effects? What is a true stereo plugin? Which reverbs are true?

Postby The Elf » Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:14 pm

James Perrett wrote:I'm still old school and use reverb on busses with each bus being stereo and the sends being post fade and post pan so that the track's position in the mix is the same as its position in the reverb send signal. I find that using fewer different reverbs creates a more convincing sound stage than individual reverbs on everything. A typical mix uses a couple of reverb busses and one or two delay busses.
+1, though I invariably end up with more of each...
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Re: Panning for send effects? What is a true stereo plugin? Which reverbs are true?

Postby CS70 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:01 pm

God in the last track I have some 8 or 9 verbs, some of them on channels with proper dry/wet! I had this idea to use reverbs to phase the sound and change the timbre in a different way than the usual tools and I may have taken it a little far..

Sent the draft mix to the band and they weren’t recoiling in horror but then they understand as much of mixing as I do of gardening. Tomorrow I’ll have a fresh listen and see.

Mostly old school here as well, had no idea there was a new school .
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Re: Panning for send effects? What is a true stereo plugin? Which reverbs are true?

Postby The Elf » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:08 pm

For a rock/pop mix I typically end up with 5/6 reverbs and 5/6 delays. Wherever possible I share, share, cross-pollenate and share. It makes for a more coherent mix IMHO.
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Re: Panning for send effects? What is a true stereo plugin? Which reverbs are true?

Postby DC-Choppah » Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:47 am

In protools there are three little buttons above the send fader that do:

SAFE: No automation can change your settings
PRE: pre or post fader
FMP: From Main Panner. This one copies the pan from the track and deactivates the pan control for the send. So by setting FMP to on and PRE to off, we are post fader and pan like the old school way.

Here is a picture showing a track set to FMP

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1fTU6B ... YYM1tk7XNW


Then there are also
LINK: Makes the send a fixed width but moves its location
Inverse: Makes the width fixed but moves only the location

I have never used any of this stuff for a send.

Does panning the send reverb/delays that are used across the whole mix really make any difference in some other situation, perhaps different than what I was trying to achieve?

Always looking for a more natural reverb that sounds like you were really there.
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Re: Panning for send effects? What is a true stereo plugin? Which reverbs are true?

Postby CS70 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:54 am

Just a thought: if you are in a large hall, the relative distance between the instruments will be much smaller than your distance from the walls - in other words the reflection which reach you depend more on your position than the musicians, unless they're really far away from each other. Unless you are very near to the stage, a small ensemble sitting together will be like a point source. So "natural" in that context is maybe not panned at all - you probably want to simulate someone sitting in the midline of the hall.

For a larger orchestra, again you want to decide where you are sitting, and then pan left or right the usual way to distribute the sound.
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Re: Panning for send effects? What is a true stereo plugin? Which reverbs are true?

Postby Zukan » Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:06 am

I'm with Hugh on this. Panning verbs doesn't really yield any useful results unless it's for film, special effects or sound design. The more positive approach is to have the reverb define the space the instruments reside in and pan the sounds within that given space.
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