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Some advice please - Live sound system (upgrade?)

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Re: Some advice please - Live sound system (upgrade?)

Postby Sam Spoons » Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:44 pm

blinddrew wrote:Frequently the problem with subs-under-tops isn't where they are relative to the tops, it's that the tops are really close to the walls...

This^

funky54 wrote:
Sam Spoons wrote:I agree with you that subs together (either centrally or wherever else they will fit) sound better but at many venues that is simply not possible. My only gripe with your suggestions is that subs under the tops are completely unworkable, sticking the subs under the tops may be the only possible position and the best you can do. The key point though is to listen and, if possible experiment with position. Wherever you place the subs in a small/medium room the bass will vary as you walk around the room, finding the best place for balance is the key.

* The little work I do is mostly smaller venues these days and sometimes one has to be pragmatic, though, TBF, I only have a single sub on my own rig which is all I use these days.
I’m down to one Bag End 15” sub myself. I use 12’ 2ways for everything else.

I should have suggested to the OP to try placing the subs on one side and both mains together on the other but turned or fanned out to cover the room. It goes against any visual aesthetic... but it usually sounds better than subs as bottoms.

I try to solve everything with speaker placement and then just ring out EQ fast and simple.

And this^ (though fanning out the subs should be unnecessary, single driver subs are omnidirectional*.

*The OP was asking about a QSC cardioid sub as an option, no personal experience but I like the idea in principle (but even my single "old school" EV sBA750 15" sub seems to keep up with a pair of QSC K12s without difficulty).
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Re: Some advice please - Live sound system (upgrade?)

Postby Craigslee » Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:23 pm

Sam Spoons wrote:I agree with you that subs together (either centrally or wherever else they will fit) sound better but at many venues that is simply not possible. My only gripe with your suggestions is that subs under the tops are completely unworkable, sticking the subs under the tops may be the only possible position and the best you can do. The key point though is to listen and, if possible experiment with position. Wherever you place the subs in a small/medium room the bass will vary as you walk around the room, finding the best place for balance is the key.

* The little work I do is mostly smaller venues these days and sometimes one has to be pragmatic, though, TBF, I only have a single sub on my own rig which is all I use these days.
So Sam, with your single sub, is it generallg placed to one side? I'm curious...

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Re: Some advice please - Live sound system (upgrade?)

Postby Sam Spoons » Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:18 pm

Almost always, 'cos there's rarely a stage (or at least not one high enough to put the sub front centre). Where you place the sub matters because if you pick the wrong place you'll get a very uneven bass sound throughout the room due to room nodes. There will be a point where the effect is least (and the bass most even around the room) if you can find it by moving the sub around. Bass is omnidirectional so it does not matter which direction the sub is pointing (as long as it is not one of these 'new fangled' cardioid arrays ;) ).
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Re: Some advice please - Live sound system (upgrade?)

Postby resistorman » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:14 pm

Not having used one, does a cardioid sub work in small and medium rooms?
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Re: Some advice please - Live sound system (upgrade?)

Postby Wonks » Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:50 am

Its pattern is going to be similar to that of the tops, so yes, no reason for one not to in general.

If the space is quite rectangular and you are set up in the middle of the long side, with extra tops facing out to fill in the sides, then conventional subs would be better. But in a more standard arrangement, then the result should be a tighter low end with less primary bass reflections from behind the stage.
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Re: Some advice please - Live sound system (upgrade?)

Postby funky54 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:04 pm

I’m down to one Bag End 15” sub myself. I use 12’ 2ways for everything else.

I should have suggested to the OP to try placing the subs on one side and both mains together on the other but turned or fanned out to cover the room. It goes against any visual aesthetic... but it usually sounds better than subs as bottoms.

I try to solve everything with speaker placement and then just ring out EQ fast and simple.[/quote]

And this^ (though fanning out the subs should be unnecessary, single driver subs are omnidirectional*.

*The OP was asking about a QSC cardioid sub as an option, no personal experience but I like the idea in principle (but even my single "old school" EV sBA750 15" sub seems to keep up with a pair of QSC K12s without difficulty).[/quote]

I was talking about stacking L& R mains but fanning them out. Mains on one side, subs on another.
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Re: Some advice please - Live sound system (upgrade?)

Postby Sam Spoons » Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:50 pm

It's not what I would do as having the tops next to each other increases the likelihood of comb filtering (doesn't apply with subs).
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