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A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby ramthelinefeed » Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:10 pm

Cycling 74's MAX is still going strong, I guess... although is a little overkill for my needs ;)
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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:28 am

I'm not sure if it'll work, but it won't cost you anything to try - does the Lemur Editor send MIDI / OSC?

It'd be damnably clunky in operation methinks (necessary to tape down the "e" key on your computer keyboard for instance), but easily knocks TouchOSC into a cocked hat. That is if it actually does Tx / Rx like the iOS app itself.

I'd try it for you, but that would involve installing midi monitoring software, virtual drivers etc etc . . . and well, frankly I don't need to! ;)

TBH you'd be better served by picking up a used iPad, anything from the ancient iPad 2 would suffice. Major caveats are, somewhat steep learning curve to get the most out of it, not helped by woeful to non-existent support. Oh, and SYSEX can be a PITA if you need to deal with long strings as Lemur is very limited in the length of messages / storage arrays (256 bit IIRC). Can be worked around with clever programming and concatenation but . . . well . . . like I said. PITA!
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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:09 am

Okay - bored, so tried out the Lemur Editor aaaaaand . . . nope. Doesn't transmit or receive MIDI, so that rules it out as a jerry-rigged Windows controller I'm afraid.

The caveats I already mentioned make it a poor, or at least risky investment if you were to go the iOS route expecting any kind of plug and play SYSEX editor to be frank. In point of fact, the whole touchscreen lark is a very unsatisfactory experience in any case.

It's the 3D TV of controllerism! The Aldi / Lidl of Jaffa Cakes!

Max may indeed be your best option, and for the iOS-inclined there's Mira;

https://cycling74.com/products/mira

I haven't looked at Mira since it was a free beta and wasn't quite full-featured. I expect it may be decently functional by now, some many years later.
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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby Eddy Deegan » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:18 am

n o i s e f l e ur wrote:Okay - bored, so tried out the Lemur Editor aaaaaand . . . nope. Doesn't transmit or receive MIDI, so that rules it out as a jerry-rigged Windows controller I'm afraid.

The original Lemur Editor had no MIDI. It was only useful for developing and deploying 'apps' (which were mainly XML-based configurations) to the Lemur hardware. The Lemur hardware doesn't have have a conventional MIDI interface, but messages generated by the user interacting with the application deployed to it (as well as any generated by the script running on it) are sent over ethernet to a host (Mac or PC) which must be running the Jazzutant Daemon (at least that was the case on the Mac, I never used one on the PC at the time). This Daemon translates them and presents itself to other running apps as a virtual MIDI interface.

The above worked very well, but the original Editor and the Lemur are long since abandoned by Jazzutant which is a crying shame IMHO, it had so much potential.

Maybe you tried the Editor for the Android or IOS device version? I don't think that would work standalone either. The Editor (host) + Device (phoneor tablet) package is a paid app, but trivial compared to the 4-figure sum that the Lemur hardware sold at. Unless something radical has changed since I last looked, you can do all manner of creative and useful things if you have a MIDI interface for your device. I had the IOS version for a while before departing the Apple camp for unrelated reasons.

When I was an active user of it using the Lemur hardware I was always a little frustrated at the seeming lack of willingness on the part of Jazzmutant to address issues of usability and feature set but from the look of the latest versions it's come a long way.

It's a powerful and flexible platform and good stuff, basically.
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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby Eddy Deegan » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:41 am

ramthelinefeed wrote:Cycling 74's MAX is still going strong, I guess... although is a little overkill for my needs ;)

MAX is like a software modular only more engineery. I loved it... I have a license for a version from years ago and had a lot of fun with it, but moved on when I discovered that it only scaled so much and I wanted to do larger applications than it could handle.

The 'deploy a standalone executable' worked well too but had some issues with compatibility across different client setups. I don't know if that's still the case, I would be surprised if so as Cycling74 always seemed keen to improve it.

It's definitely a time-sink, but if you like that sort of thing it's time well spent. Loads of fun, especially when integrated with the Lemur over MIDI, though that did take extra work as you had 2 GUIs to maintain :-)
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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby ramthelinefeed » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:53 pm

Yeah I have used Max before (the IRCAM flavour in the 1990s, not Cycling 74's commercial version).

Honestly though, all I wanna do is have a Windows app where I can plonk some simple widgets on the screen (sliders, buttons, etc) and map them to various MIDI messages, to actual as a programmer for various old bits of gear.
The thing is that some of my more vintage pieces of gear need this to include SysEx (so when you move the slider, it just changes the data bytes in the SysEx string) ... my Elektron SID Station is the main offender :)
But most of these cheap and simple Windows programs only work with 'continuous controller' messages.

But if I gotta fork out for Max I probably will, I guess.
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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby Eddy Deegan » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:52 pm

ramthelinefeed wrote:Honestly though, all I wanna do is have a Windows app where I can plonk some simple widgets on the screen (sliders, buttons, etc) and map them to various MIDI messages, to actual as a programmer for various old bits of gear.
The thing is that some of my more vintage pieces of gear need this to include SysEx (so when you move the slider, it just changes the data bytes in the SysEx string) ... my Elektron SID Station is the main offender :)
But most of these cheap and simple Windows programs only work with 'continuous controller' messages.

But if I gotta fork out for Max I probably will, I guess.

I'd say this is exactly the sort of thing that Max excels at. Not only do you get to design your own interface the way you want it, but you can also get very creative with the MIDI side of things if you're prepared to dive into a little bit of Javascript.

A number of years ago I created an editor suite for the Yamaha XS8 (sadly, never finished due to Max limitations) which relied heavily on Sysex and part of that involved reading and writing bytes directly to/from the MIDI interface in Max using a Javascript widget. It was a lot of fun and very educational as well.

Cycling74 offer a 30-day free evaluation of Max, so that might well be worth a bit of exploration!
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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby ramthelinefeed » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:58 pm

Oh yes, I know Max could definitely do this. It just can do about a thousand other things too, which I'm wary of getting distracted by :) :crazy:
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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:04 pm

Eddy Deegan wrote:
Maybe you tried the Editor for the Android or IOS device version? I don't think that would work standalone either. The Editor (host) + Device (phoneor tablet) package is a paid app, but trivial compared to the 4-figure sum that the Lemur hardware sold at. Unless something radical has changed since I last looked, you can do all manner of creative and useful things if you have a MIDI interface for your device. I had the IOS version for a while before departing the Apple camp for unrelated reasons.

When I was an active user of it using the Lemur hardware I was always a little frustrated at the seeming lack of willingness on the part of Jazzmutant to address issues of usability and feature set but from the look of the latest versions it's come a long way.

It's a powerful and flexible platform and good stuff, basically.

Yep Eddy, the Windows editor. I was aiming for exercise-in-futility - not demonstration-of-insanity!

The Lemur app has definitely improved over the original hardware in terms of functionality, but the editor software is still a bloody useability nightmare where, if you're not intimately aware of its foibles . . . much lost work awaits.

There's also the many undocumented behaviours of the runtime to contend with.
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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:05 pm

There's always ctrlr;

https://ctrlr.org/

^ To handle the SYSEX, mappable to any touch interface.
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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby Agharta » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:35 pm

Do a search for yMIDI on the Windows store.
They have 3 apps which overlap to a large degree seemingly but all come with trials and are under £5.
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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:28 pm

More massive overkill - Usine Hollyhock 4.

https://brainmodular.com/

Pros: Looks like it'll do what's requested and then some!

Cons: Expensive!
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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby ramthelinefeed » Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:13 pm

n o i s e f l e ur wrote:There's always ctrlr;

https://ctrlr.org/

^ To handle the SYSEX, mappable to any touch interface.

Oh, that looks EXACTLY like the sort of thing I had in mind.
I don't think it existed last time I was looking.

Thanks very much for the tip! :)
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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby Agharta » Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:50 pm

ramthelinefeed wrote:
n o i s e f l e ur wrote:There's always ctrlr;

https://ctrlr.org/

^ To handle the SYSEX, mappable to any touch interface.

Oh, that looks EXACTLY like the sort of thing I had in mind.
I don't think it existed last time I was looking.

Thanks very much for the tip! :)

I looked at it briefly but wasn't sure if it's designed for touch and especially multi-touch.
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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:36 pm

ramthelinefeed wrote:
n o i s e f l e ur wrote:There's always ctrlr;

https://ctrlr.org/

^ To handle the SYSEX, mappable to any touch interface.

Oh, that looks EXACTLY like the sort of thing I had in mind.
I don't think it existed last time I was looking.

Thanks very much for the tip! :)

No problem, glad to help.

As mentioned by Agharta, it may not be multitouch-capable, but for what you've said it's for it should suffice. Oddly, I didn't even consider it as a touch interface in itself but it ought to at least respond to single-touch and for simple sysex editing of parameters that's basically all you're going to need I'd imagine. It's not like hardware MIDI is designed to accomodate vast volumes of realtime sysex anyway.

I should really fire it up on the old touchscreen laptop here and test it for touch just for laughs! Will mean re-enabling the touchscreen but that's no biggie.

Another benefit to this over something like Lemur is it uses an actual scripting language (LUA), so any time spent learning that might have wider application - versus whatever application-specific abomination Lemur interprets.
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