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Gender bias/discrimination in music

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Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby shufflebeat » Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:12 pm

Watchmaker wrote:Anecdotes ARE data, just not a form that lends itself to convincing argument.

This looks like a "qualitative vs quantitative" debate. Both very important and, as I think you both point out, both have their strengths and weaknesses so are susceptible to misuse by those who want to blind others with BS.

And no doubt women have suffered staggering oppression, but so have entire cultures.

There is another common logical mistake which is to conflate that which is true for the population with that which is true for the individual. I can't quite remember the details but, as an exercise I was able to present a set of data and conclusions where the conclusions based on the data were actually not relevant to any individual in the group. It was a bit of a stretch but the point was (laboriously) made.

That is one problem with imposing quotas as a technique for redressing imbalance. Others are; they often don't have the desired effect and they create a very soft target for those trying to derail the argument or kick over the table completely.

I don't really have a good answer for this except that the only time I forbade my daughter from an activity was a school based cheerleading after-school club which, as an ex-anarcho-syndicalist feminist anti-imperialist (what else have you got?) punk there was no bloody way that was happening.

She is studying English at University now but has never forgiven me
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Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby Arpangel » Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:26 pm

My experiences are varied, when I lived in London I used to go to a pub in Camden, the Dublin Castle, every Tuesday to the open mic night, I’d say female representation was exceptionally high, sometimes hardly any guys, bias didn’t seem an issue, but musical styles were extremely varied.
Down here in Kent it’s a different issue, I’d say mainly male, open mic nights at my local, I haven’t seen one female, but the musical bias is predominantly rock, blues, and covers, plus all of the bands seem to be mainly male as well.
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Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby Sam Spoons » Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:42 pm

Several of our local open mics (South West Manchester) seem to have a fairly even mix of men and women performers but most of the women sing to tracks which is the main reason why I only go to them infrequently. The ones I do choose to go to slightly more often discourage/ban tracks and seem to have a predominance of male performers.
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Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby OneWorld » Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:59 pm

I'll take the whole thing seriously when I see men clamouring to work in nail bars, maybe that is due to our education system that does not encourage men to seek careers in nail bars, and I watched the program about the North Yorkshire Steam Railway, and did I spot one woman busting a gut to volunteer for work in the engine shed? Not one, all I saw were blokes happily hutching and thrutching about in back boilers - hey ladies, what's not to like about that?

I once worked in science, coding to be exact and could we get women interested, more chance of seeing Corbyn at a barmitzvah. That is not to say they can't do it, it is that they won't do it, and I won't go work in a nailbar either.
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Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby CS70 » Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:37 pm

OneWorld wrote:I'll take the whole thing seriously when I see men clamouring to work in nail bars

...

and I won't go work in a nailbar either.

I'd work in a nail bar in a second - if they payed well.

I mean what other job as basically all clientele of the fair sex?

Pure paradise, you ask me.
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Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby blinddrew » Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:16 pm

:mrgreen:
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Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:33 pm

CS70 wrote:
OneWorld wrote:I'll take the whole thing seriously when I see men clamouring to work in nail bars

...

and I won't go work in a nailbar either.

I'd work in a nail bar in a second - if they payed well.

I mean what other job as basically all clientele of the fair sex?

Pure paradise, you ask me.

Abortion clinics. Midwifery.

Still want the job?
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Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby James Perrett » Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:23 am

I notice that one of the other pro audio magazines seems to be trying hard to feature women in audio very heavily at the moment. The only problem is that the same names seem to keep appearing which make it feel forced rather than a natural response to the gender imbalance.

In my previous scientific life there were quite a few women coming through on the engineering side when I left though I know some of them have moved on now. When it comes to ocean science there are a large number of women working in marine biology but less on the physical sciences (although it is better than it was).
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Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby Tim Gillett » Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:21 am

With any issue especially a divisive one it's so much better to start by looking calmly and dispassionately at the facts. So it seems we more used to speak descriptively of a "division of labour". Now it seems that descriptive term is less used and has been replaced in public discussion by political terms, terms of value judgement such as "bias/discrimination". Such as this thread, as well as a previous lounge thread...

Can we just look in some detail at some employment ratios? I mean good, reliable stats about the current division of labour across a wide range of job categories. Here's one source:

https://careersmart.org.uk/occupations/ ... own-gender
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Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:54 am

I have no idea what point you're trying to make Tim, except perhaps to miss the point entirely.
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Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby Tim Gillett » Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:30 am

n o i s e f l e ur wrote:I have no idea what point you're trying to make Tim, except perhaps to miss the point entirely.

And which point was that?
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Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby OneWorld » Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:31 am

n o i s e f l e ur wrote:
CS70 wrote:
OneWorld wrote:I'll take the whole thing seriously when I see men clamouring to work in nail bars

...

and I won't go work in a nailbar either.

I'd work in a nail bar in a second - if they payed well.

I mean what other job as basically all clientele of the fair sex?

Pure paradise, you ask me.

Abortion clinics. Midwifery.

Still want the job?

And your point is?
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Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby CS70 » Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:25 am

n o i s e f l e ur wrote:
CS70 wrote:
OneWorld wrote:I'll take the whole thing seriously when I see men clamouring to work in nail bars

...

and I won't go work in a nailbar either.

I'd work in a nail bar in a second - if they payed well.

I mean what other job as basically all clientele of the fair sex?

Pure paradise, you ask me.

Abortion clinics. Midwifery.

Still want the job?

Nah, same reason I can’t be a doctor- can’t stand the sight of blood.
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Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby Arpangel » Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:32 am

By talking about possible gender inequality in the music business is actually acknowledging that one exists, and in my experience it doesn’t. I’ve worked with female engineers, and members of my band, this subject has never come up, and also, it’s a bit ironic that no females have replied to this thread. If any women out there are reading this, please make a contribution, or, may be I am right in saying there isn’t an issue.
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Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby blinddrew » Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:17 am

Conflating two things there Arpangel, 1) is it a reality, 2) is it a problem.
The fact that we have so few female contributors on here suggests the opposite conclusion for me.
But let's get some numbers here. We must have plenty of music nights going on over the next few weeks between us, I propose a count, performers and technical people, split by gender.
Let's get some data. :)
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