You are here

Gender bias/discrimination in music

Advice on everything from getting your music heard to setting up a label and royalties.

Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby awjoe » Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:20 am

n o i s e f l e ur wrote:My bet would be on the bar staff both being women.

And the ratio was 7:2.

Right about the ratio, wrong about the bar staff both being women. And I suspect he didn't mean ratio, since he wrote it as a fraction.
User avatar
awjoe
Frequent Poster (Level2)
Posts: 2482
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:00 am
Music production is like finding a good hair dresser

Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby Sam Inglis » Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:54 am

Tim's list is interesting not least because it lists only 10 jobs where the proportion of male employees is under 10 percent, but 44 occupations where the proportion of female employees is under 10 percent. Which would suggest that the 'men only' job is still much more of a thing than the 'women only' job.

Presumably this data applies only to the UK? One curious thing is that the representation of women in STEM subjects such as science and engineering is at its lowest in 'liberal' countries like Sweden, and is highest in places like Iran.
Sam Inglis
Moderator
Posts: 2645
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 1:00 am

Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby blinddrew » Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:07 am

I wonder if there's a salary driver there as well? Do more liberal countries pay more for the more people-oriented roles?
User avatar
blinddrew
Jedi Poster
Posts: 10465
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:00 am
Location: York
Ignore the post count, I have no idea what I'm doing...

Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:57 pm

Sam Inglis wrote:Tim's list is interesting not least because it lists only 10 jobs where the proportion of male employees is under 10 percent, but 44 occupations where the proportion of female employees is under 10 percent. Which would suggest that the 'men only' job is still much more of a thing than the 'women only' job.


That's what I gleaned from the list Sam. It's essentially statistical evidence in support of the hypothesis that bias and discrimination (not the same thing) are alive and well.

The doc I highlighted does quite a good job explaining why western LDs are seeing these seemingly counter-intuitive trends . . . and it's not so counter-intuitive at all. Propaganda and operant-conditioning really do work, especially in the very young.
n o i s e f l e ur
Regular
Posts: 237
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2018 6:20 am

Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby Sam Spoons » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:03 pm

n o i s e f l e ur wrote:My bet would be on the bar staff both being women.

And the ratio was 7:2.

There was only one bar staff (unless he/she was doubling as promotor or venue manager (or, indeed, any of the other roles on offer)
User avatar
Sam Spoons
Jedi Poster
Posts: 12709
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 1:00 am
Location: Manchester UK
Finally taking this recording lark seriously (and recording my Gypsy Jazz CD)........

Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:31 pm

Ah - then I would suppose awjoe had it the first time. Of course, I'm assuming you posted this to illustrate the existence of inequal representation as opposed to rebutting the notion.

I just placed my bet on the most egregious interpretation, in part because it wouldn't shock me if that were the case, in part just to place a different bet than awjoe (not intended to be competitive or contradictory - but to emphasise that it wouldn't be too surprising if that were in fact the case).
n o i s e f l e ur
Regular
Posts: 237
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2018 6:20 am

Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby merlyn » Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:13 pm

awjoe wrote:Let's see how well stereotypes work - the vocalist and bar staff were women. Any prize? Or do I just get accused of shallow stereotyping?

Yes, you win the prize. :) Most of the women I know who are involved in music are singers. Breaking my data down :

  • Performers 1/5 -- 20%
  • Technical 0/1 -- 0%
  • Business 0/2 -- 0%
  • Support 1/1 -- 100%

I haven't met many women instrumentalists who gig in the places I do. I have a pool of musicians I can phone to do a gig and the only women on the list are a violinist and two percussionists. No female drummers, keyboard players or bass players.

My experience of music is that it is male dominated. There's no bias or discrimination on my part because I don't have the choice between a man and a woman.

I think music would be healthier if there were more women involved.
merlyn
Regular
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:15 am

Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby Dynamic Mike » Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:52 pm

Sam Inglis wrote:Tim's list is interesting not least because it lists only 10 jobs where the proportion of male employees is under 10 percent, but 44 occupations where the proportion of female employees is under 10 percent. Which would suggest that the 'men only' job is still much more of a thing than the 'women only' job.

Not really. You could list the top 17 as manual labour & split Nursing into at least 17 categories. You'd need to look at the total numbers compared to the available workforce & take part-time occupations into consideration. Also I'd have thought the most male dominated occupation would have been the armed forces.

The only meanful survey would be to ask people what occupation do you have compared to what occupation would you like to have had (within your capacity). It would be great to have more women in the music industry but only if that's what they wanted.

Also I'm from a generation who's occupational choices were often determined by the job market. There were 3+ Million unemployed who couldn't all be marine biologists & had to choose a career that actually led to getting a job.
Dynamic Mike
Frequent Poster (Level2)
Posts: 3379
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:00 am
'Cause the law don't change another's mind

Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby Peevy » Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:34 pm

I’m a female of the species.

I’m mostly on the recording/mixing/arranging side of things. (I used to play professionally, but don’t do much of that these days (too old!))

I don’t think I’ve come across any discrimination as such. Very occasionally I have detected an incredulity that a woman would know anything at all about all this techy stuff. But not often.

If anything, I think being a woman has been a benefit in finding clients for my (very modest) little recording studio. My clients are 50/50 male/female … mostly of the singer/songwriter variety. I get the feeling sometimes that clients choose me because they feel a bit insecure and find the idea of a woman less intimidating? That’s just a guess though.

I taught music decades ago, stopped when the kids came along and perchance was involved in the making of an album around that time. I continued from there into eternal nerdiness.

Interestingly, I pondered on this for a bit before posting as I wasn’t entirely sure I wanted to wave a female hand in the direction of the forum … but hey ho. :)
Peevy
Regular
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:00 am

Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby Sam Spoons » Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:27 pm

I'm glad you did Peevy. And it's good to hear that you haven't experienced any discrimination. I will be surprised and disappointed if any of the regulars treat you any differently now you have revealed yourself.
User avatar
Sam Spoons
Jedi Poster
Posts: 12709
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 1:00 am
Location: Manchester UK
Finally taking this recording lark seriously (and recording my Gypsy Jazz CD)........

Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:56 pm

I'd actually be surprised if blatant discrimination is still rife, but I think it's important to make the distinction between bias and discrimination.

For instance - Peevy's experience of people being surprised she knows her stuff is evidence of bias, whereas if someone refused to accept she knows her stuff because female . . . that would be discrimination.
n o i s e f l e ur
Regular
Posts: 237
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2018 6:20 am

Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby Peevy » Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:28 pm

Sam Spoons wrote:And it's good to hear that you haven't experienced any discrimination. I will be surprised and disappointed if any of the regulars treat you any differently now you have revealed yourself.

Thanks Sam. , I’m totally confident that those who post in this forum wouldn't stoop so low! :D

n o i s e f l e ur wrote:For instance - Peevy's experience of people being surprised she knows her stuff is evidence of bias, whereas if someone refused to accept she knows her stuff because female . . . that would be discrimination.

On bias and discrimination, it’s hard to know noisefleur. If people find me via my website and make a booking, then they’ve probably already shown that they don’t have bias. But who knows? Some may visit my website and immediately hit the exit button because of my gender.

This was years ago, but I do remember going into a music shop to buy some PA equipment. The first question I was asked was if I taught an aerobics class. :shocked:
Peevy
Regular
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:00 am

Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby Tim Gillett » Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:24 am

n o i s e f l e ur wrote:You really should try and watch that show, it's very informative.

Based in science, as opposed to the much-vaunted but hilarious-when-not-actually-tragic "common sense".

It absolutely does a much better job at demolishing your whole line of (circular) "reasoning" than I care to in this venue.

The working assumption of the TV show is that basically the human brain is not "gendered". The source appears to be Gina Rippon's book, "The Gendered Brain...".

Larry Cahill is "a professor in the Department of Neurobiology and Behavior at the University of California, Irvine and an internationally recognized leader on the topic of sex influences on brain function."

Here is Cahill's review of Gina Rippon's book. Be prepared for some perhaps surprising insights.

https://quillette.com/2019/03/29/denyin ... fferences/
Tim Gillett
Frequent Poster (Level2)
Posts: 2120
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:00 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby Arpangel » Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:04 am

N i g e l wrote:Note that - maybe not on this site but on other forums woman feel obliged to go incogneto and keep a low profile due to the "banter"{top of the list would be a synth forum with a non PC name}.

There are a few people who are very unhappy with the name of "that forum" me included.
A good source of info, and there are a few nice people there, but on the whole, no thanks.
I suppose SOS could be compared to a friendly local pub, but the others, I’m not sure what you’d compare them to.
User avatar
Arpangel
Jedi Poster
Posts: 4205
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2003 12:00 am

Re: Gender bias/discrimination in music

Postby awjoe » Thu Feb 27, 2020 7:31 am

merlyn wrote:
My experience of music is that it is male dominated. There's no bias or discrimination on my part because I don't have the choice between a man and a woman.

I think music would be healthier if there were more women involved.

Healthier? How so? How is it not healthy now? (I'm not challenging what you say, I'm just wondering.)
User avatar
awjoe
Frequent Poster (Level2)
Posts: 2482
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:00 am
Music production is like finding a good hair dresser

PreviousNext