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Very precise eq for single bass pitches?

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Re: Very precise eq for single bass pitches?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:32 am

It's worth bearing in mind that while EQ can reduce the amplitude of a room's resonance, it can't do anything to correct the inherent delayed energy release associated with a resonance -- the time smearing aspect of it.

The only way to control that is with appropriately designed bass absorbers -- narrow-band tuned ones would probably be the most appropriate in the OP's situation.
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Re: Very precise eq for single bass pitches?

Postby Nyiregyhazi » Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:50 pm

I've tried the nova plugin now, but it didn't really seem to zone in on the boomy pitches that I've been needing to correct. For some reason it was aiming at frequencies on either side and simply missing the frequency of the notes that create the notably ugly quality. I was quite surprised by this, as the bits I was looking at are where those notes would have been by far the loudest in the overall texture anyway, even without the added effect of resonance.

Part of this may be to do with the tuning of the piano (as the resonances are emphasising dissonance in the unison) so I still wonder how it will sound on the same pitches once I get the piano tuned. However, it's too much to be a tuning issue alone that is coming out, so it's odd that it's looking elsewhere, rather than at the problem frequency. I've been getting a lot more success with the soothe 2 plugin. It's quite easy to take too much away from the overall sound quality, but if I use it for around 150 hz downwards it makes for a huge amount of improvement. I could probably try doing that first and then experiment on doing the treble separately (perhaps with the bass on the hard setting and the treble on the soft version, for less extreme removal).

The idea of tuned bass traps is quite interesting, but how good are they in a tiny room? I'm not sure if it would be more the case, that in a tiny room room they can make the biggest difference of all or more that you're so screwed to start with that it's simply beyond expecting much more of a fix than I already have. I have almost two full packs of the rwa45 rockwool at the moment. I haven't yet figured out how to secure some into the upper corners, but I have plenty opposite the piano lid and in lower corners.
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Re: Very precise eq for single bass pitches?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:58 pm

Nyiregyhazi wrote:The idea of tuned bass traps is quite interesting, but how good are they in a tiny room?

Depends how well they are made and installed... but I'd opine a heck of a lot better than an undersized broadband bass trap made from almost two full packs of the rwa45 rockwool[/quote]

The difficulty is in finding someone able and willing to design and build them for you. But you can find the details and calculations on the web for various tuned absorber designs.
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Re: Very precise eq for single bass pitches?

Postby Sam Spoons » Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:14 pm

Nyiregyhazi wrote:I've tried the nova plugin now, but it didn't really seem to zone in on the boomy pitches that I've been needing to correct. For some reason it was aiming at frequencies on either side and simply missing the frequency of the notes that create the notably ugly quality. I was quite surprised by this, as the bits I was looking at are where those notes would have been by far the loudest in the overall texture anyway, even without the added effect of resonance.

After a quick scan of the website I'll are are you using TDR nova to automatically remove room resonances? Is it ,maybe trying to do that without affecting the wanted audio? That might explain the affecting frequencies either side of the overloud notes?

The idea of tuned bass traps is quite interesting, but how good are they in a tiny room? I'm not sure if it would be more the case, that in a tiny room room they can make the biggest difference of all or more that you're so screwed to start with that it's simply beyond expecting much more of a fix than I already have. I have almost two full packs of the rwa45 rockwool at the moment. I haven't yet figured out how to secure some into the upper corners, but I have plenty opposite the piano lid and in lower corners.

Bass is pretty much omnidirectional, my bass traps contain about 2 ½ packs of RW3 and the remainder of the room has five 1200 x 600 x 50mm panels and a couple of 800 x 600 x 50mm which used another pack and a half. I'm planning on adding a few more which will probably need another full pack. That will be total of 6.7 m2 of broad band absorbers and .72 m3 of bass traps. I could probably do with more bass trapping but running out of room to install it.
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Re: Very precise eq for single bass pitches?

Postby Nyiregyhazi » Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:45 pm

Sam Spoons wrote:
Nyiregyhazi wrote:I've tried the nova plugin now, but it didn't really seem to zone in on the boomy pitches that I've been needing to correct. For some reason it was aiming at frequencies on either side and simply missing the frequency of the notes that create the notably ugly quality. I was quite surprised by this, as the bits I was looking at are where those notes would have been by far the loudest in the overall texture anyway, even without the added effect of resonance.

After a quick scan of the website I'll are are you using TDR nova to automatically remove room resonances? Is it ,maybe trying to do that without affecting the wanted audio? That might explain the affecting frequencies either side of the overloud notes?

Yeah, god knows exactly how the algorithms work, but presumably there must be a lot of complexity in terms of how they distinguish what is meant to be louder (in pieces with plenty of dynamic range) and things which are resonating on top of that. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem anywhere near as good at directing itself to the problems as the one in soothe 2. With that I can see the rather thin notches zoning in rather exactly on the right frequencies. In nova it picked two completely different ones on either side and made a rather broad shift that seemed to leave the correct area missed in between.

I might see if I could fit a little more rockwool in at some point, but the room is only 10 foot by 10. Realistically, I don't think I'm going to fully sovle everything at source, so I think tidying up with soothe is probably going to be the best option
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Re: Very precise eq for single bass pitches?

Postby Nyiregyhazi » Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:54 pm

Does anyone know if there's a good reason why gullfoss would fail to work in audacity, by the way? I was going to do the trial on that too, but there was no luck. From what I read it's more for different purposes than fixing resonance notches but I was curious to see whether it would help with uneven balancing between registers. I wasn't particularly overwhelmed by their demonstration on a piano (it had a rather lifeless sound that made me think they were recording a digital piano at first) but it was certainly better when they applied it. It tended to make me feel that if this was their optimal choice for demo purposes, I'd quite possibly be even more underwhelmed by the results I'd get for myself, but I'm still curious.
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Re: Very precise eq for single bass pitches?

Postby Sam Spoons » Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:57 pm

Nyiregyhazi wrote:Yeah, god knows exactly how the algorithms work, but presumably there must be a lot of complexity in terms of how they distinguish what is meant to be louder (in pieces with plenty of dynamic range) and things which are resonating on top of that. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem anywhere near as good at directing itself to the problems as the one in soothe 2. With that I can see the rather thin notches zoning in rather exactly on the right frequencies. In nova it picked two completely different ones on either side and made a rather broad shift that seemed to leave the correct area missed in between.

I might see if I could fit a little more rockwool in at some point, but the room is only 10 foot by 10. Realistically, I don't think I'm going to fully sovle everything at source, so I think tidying up with soothe is probably going to be the best option

Small rooms are difficult, mine is about 13' x 13' but with a low ceiling.

Sounds like nova is ignoring the note and trying to remove the resonances around it. Which, actually, is what you'd want it to do in many cases.

Just a thought, might Melodyne do something useful?
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Re: Very precise eq for single bass pitches?

Postby Nyiregyhazi » Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:08 pm

Ah, okay. I know it can be complex with the overtone relationships, but I was able to get reasonably good results before from simply targeting the exact frequency of the boomy notes with a narrow eq. It made for a lot of improvement but it was just the hassle. Soothe seems to be figuring out something very similar, but nova felt like it took away the depth of other frequencies without removing the ugly boom itself.
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Re: Very precise eq for single bass pitches?

Postby Nyiregyhazi » Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:15 am

I managed to get gulfoss working, although I had to get reaper on trial, as audacity is only 32 bit. After some experimenting, it seems capable of doing a pretty similar job to soothe, although it looks like it's being a lot less precise to the noisy pitches. I figured out that I'll need to run a sweep at only 200hz and below, with the reduction setting turned up past 100. In theory it's supposed to sound bad beyond that, but this doesn't seem to be a problem in the bass alone.

I'd like to try doing the bass cut first and then run it again for the whole spectrum--with a little bit of addition to the weaker frequencies. It seems to sound false very soon if I crank this up much at all, but just a small addition seemed to help with the clarity of the treble and add a little of the very low bass depth. Soothe only takes things away, so it will be interesting to see if I can actually get the better results when coming from both ends.

How do you run a plugin twice in reaper? In audacity I just run them in order, but it doesn't seem to do the processing until you're done in audacity. Do you just add the plugins in order of operation?
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Re: Very precise eq for single bass pitches?

Postby varunbkk » Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:50 am

I think this could be a good use case for a room correction plugin like ARC3 or Sonarworks.

Since you've already installed a lot of broadband rockwool-based DIY treatment,
ARC or Sonarworks should be able to pin-point and mop up the specific problem frequencies you're targeting.

Tuned narrow-band bass traps are also an option, but require a lot more effort, in terms of the calculations and build of the traps.
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Re: Very precise eq for single bass pitches?

Postby Nyiregyhazi » Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:57 am

Ah, sounds interesting. I've got a programme that I tried briefly for checking room resonances, but I must go back and try it again.

One thing that I've wondered about is also the tuning, but I'm getting the piano tuned for the first time in ages tomorrow. With the three most obvious boomy notes, I've never been fully sure about how much is an absolute volume issue and how much could be an exaggerated impression due to the tuning slipping. It'll be good to find out either way, whether it makes the same frequencies notably less of a problem or not.
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Re: Very precise eq for single bass pitches?

Postby blinddrew » Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:09 am

As far as i can tell in Reaper you just keep adding instances of a plugin until you run out of processing power.
I think gullfoss is the wrong tool for this job really though, so whilst you may get a subtle benefit if it can reduce any strident overtones from these dodgy notes, i'd also expect any significant clean up to come at the cost of realism across the rest of the spectrum.
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Re: Very precise eq for single bass pitches?

Postby Nyiregyhazi » Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:56 pm

Well, it's officially supposed to be able to remove excess without changing the impression of volume, but looking at the size of the notches it certainly does seem like soothe is by far the better option for the fixes.

I think I'm starting to see the benefits of reaper now. I was originally looking at it simply in terms of whether audacity can do the tasks I need or not and I hadn't yet hit any wall with this. However, it does seem very useful to stack up the plugins and tweak any one of them at any point, rather than have to undo various steps in audacity to change an earlier step. Also, I noticed that sometimes audacity wasn't responding properly to tweaks made in soothe during a preview.

Is there a way of saving a chain of plugins settings for Reaper so you can simply load them on the same every time, without having to go into the plugins to re-select your presets? It would probably save a lot of time to start with some defaults and go back to tweak the details, rather than have to do add each one manually for every recording.
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Re: Very precise eq for single bass pitches?

Postby blinddrew » Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:07 pm

Nyiregyhazi wrote:Is there a way of saving a chain of plugins settings for Reaper so you can simply load them on the same every time, without having to go into the plugins to re-select your presets? It would probably save a lot of time to start with some defaults and go back to tweak the details, rather than have to do add each one manually for every recording.
There's probably a few ways. You can set up the default track new track to have plugins (mine are set up with an EQ and compressor linked to my BCR2000) and you can also save tracks (or collections of tracks) as templates. So, for example, my bass guitar template has four tracks with a variety of plugins on different tracks, so whenever I get or record a DI'd bass part I can just load recall that template and load the audio into it.
There's probably a way to just save a sequence of plugins on their own as well but I've never looked for it.
Correction, since I was sitting here with a track open anyway, yep, it's right there in the plugin window, Save FX Chain. :)
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Re: Very precise eq for single bass pitches?

Postby Nyiregyhazi » Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:51 pm

Ah, nice. My first instinct upon opening reaper (and finding you couldn't use the touch pad to zoom into part of a track) was that I wanted to avoid it like the plague, but I'm becoming more convinced that it'll be worth adapting to. I've since found that you do it fairly quickly (by selecting part of the track and right clicking, for an option to zoom to the selected part) although it still annoys me that you can't zoom with that kind of simplicity).
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