You are here

NEW - Neve console - announced today

All about the tools and techniques involved in capturing sound, in the studio or on location.

Re: NEW - Neve console - announced today

Postby ef37a » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:14 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:The problem with the LM301 in the Quad amp was not slew rate or gain bandwidth, but self- noise...

Oh! Right. Silly Acoustical!

Dave.
ef37a
Jedi Poster
Posts: 12033
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 12:00 am
Location: northampton uk

Re: NEW - Neve console - announced today

Postby Arpangel » Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:43 am

Hugh Robjohns wrote:The trouble is, Tony, you haven't assessed what you really need now and going forward, you don't really know what you want but there are lots of unrealistic, unnecessary and unachievable fantasies floating around in your head, you don't have any experience of the alternative technologies and solutions, and so you have prejudiced, fixed and outdated negative views against these other possibilities.

All of which make you a very frustrating and difficult person to help!

...but we'll continue to do our best... :wtf: :lol:

I absolutely do not know what I will need in the future, that’s a certainty!
I have vague fantasies about what I might do, nothing beyond that, and expectations about equipment are always conservative, and cynical regarding what normally involves over promising and under delivering.
A digital mixer may be able to do what I need, but here is the rub, it will also do a zillion things that I don’t need, and I’m paying for all those things I don’t need, like an effects rack per channel, I don’t even need effects on a mixer, I’d rather use my guitar pedals, and rack units. I like simple EQ, I don’t need visual graphics, I don’t need an audio interface in my mixer, or a recorder, and I don’t need sophisticated and confusing multiple aux busses, and layers of stuff I can’t see.
Just a few things.
Anyone reading my posts would think that I lead a very traumatised musical life, and never make any music, nothing is further from the truth, I’m very happy with what I’ve done, and have hopes for the future, my real problem is focus, I’m a bit of a roller coaster in that respect, but I’d rather be a dilettante than spend my life focusing on just one thing, or one music, that’s like buying that digital mixer, and only using a tiny bit of it.

:D :D
User avatar
Arpangel
Jedi Poster
Posts: 5034
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2003 12:00 am

Re: NEW - Neve console - announced today

Postby ef37a » Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:08 am

" that’s like buying that digital mixer, and only using a tiny bit of it. "

Yeah but isn't that the way of the Modern World? A guy with an 8 track T2R JUST wants to dump the tracks to a computer but he is almost certainly going to have to buy an AI with 8 preamps and all sorts of bells and whistles he doesn't need. Shoot! Probably paying for some ***t complicated DSP mixer as well!
I probably only know and use 2% of the capabilities of Samplitude ProX 3 and I would guess most of the peeps here, even the 'pros' don't use above 50% of their chosen software's capability?

I was always being asked as a service tech', "Why can't they make a SIMPLE VCR?" Folks just needed something they could bang on and record Corrie, most never did timer recordings. Many did not record at all! Just rented tapes.

So, IMHO you need to identify your exact needs as best you can then look for the closet match. That you will get a lot of unused capability is just how it goes.

Dave.
ef37a
Jedi Poster
Posts: 12033
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 12:00 am
Location: northampton uk

Re: NEW - Neve console - announced today

Postby Kwackman » Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:45 am

Arpangel wrote:A digital mixer may be able to do what I need, but here is the rub, it will also do a zillion things that I don’t need

So, don't use the things you don't need?
It seems odd to dismiss a mixer that "may be able to do what I need".
If it could actually do what you need, you should be beating down someone's door for a demo!!

Arpangel wrote:I don’t need, like an effects rack per channel
Not all do it that way, even if they did, these evil digital desks can't force you to use them.

Arpangel wrote:I don’t need, like an effects rack per channel, I don’t even need effects on a mixer, I’d rather use my guitar pedals, and rack units. I like simple EQ, I don’t need visual graphics, I don’t need an audio interface in my mixer, or a recorder
Fine, don't buy a desk with a built in recorder and ignore the audio interface (if there is one) and display.
Simple EQ? EQs in digital desks tend to look similar to hardware EQs (Q, Freq & gain controls) so you can make it as simple or outrageous as you want!

Arpangel wrote:I don’t need sophisticated and confusing multiple aux busses
Eh? From previous posts this is one thing you DO need. You want lots of auxes to feed your pedals and external FX. You've already decided that they are "sophisticated and confusing", go get a demo. One of the most impressive things when I first seen a digital desk demo decades ago was with ONE BUTTON PRESS the faders were showing aux 1 send levels. If you'd plugged Aux 1 out to, say a guitar chorus pedal, you could see very clearly what channels were feeding aux1 and what those levels were. MUCH easier than squinting at small rotary pots on an analogue desk. Also so much easier to see which channel was erroneously feeding aux1 - a life saver in a live situation! Then with ONE BUTTON PRESS you could go back to the faders showing channel levels, or AUX2 Sends, or whatever you want. One button press!

I only have direct experience of older digital desks (Yamaha 02R, then the 02R96, 01V96 and the DM2000 and after getting my brain out of analogue mode, I found them remarkably flexible and incredibly useful. I assume modern ones are even more user friendly. They have built in patch bays, with memories for each patch set-up, so less replugging of gear. They have multiple outputs which you can assign to be aux outs, foldback sends, headphone sends or whatever your needs are, and again, you can store several set-ups in memory for quick recall.
I know the 01V96 and the DM1000 are both rackmountable.

You seem to have dismissed digital desks for some reason. Fine, it's your decision and money. They aren't prefect and you will be swearing at times, but you may be seeing horrors that aren't there and missing out on many advantages.
User avatar
Kwackman
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1867
Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2002 1:00 am
Location: Belfast
Cubase, guitars.

Re: NEW - Neve console - announced today

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:32 pm

Arpangel wrote:A digital mixer may be able to do what I need, but here is the rub, it will also do a zillion things that I don’t need, and I’m paying for all those things I don’t need...

No, it really won't do a 'zillion things you don't need'! And it won't cost any more than a comparable analogue desk. In all likelihood it will actually cost less.

...like an effects rack per channel

I can't think of any digital desk that offers that.

I don’t even need effects on a mixer, I’d rather use my guitar pedals, and rack units.

Then use those... it's not an either/or decision. But I'd bet within a few weeks you'd find the extra FX facilities useful and creative...

I like simple EQ, I don’t need visual graphics

Then don't look at the pretty pictures, just twiddle the knobs and use your ears! There's nothing complex about gain, Q and frequency controls.

I don’t need an audio interface in my mixer, or a recorder...

Then don't buy a digital mixer with those facilities.

... and I don’t need sophisticated and confusing multiple aux busses, and layers of stuff I can’t see.

Er... the demand for sophisticated multiple aux busses was precisely what sent us down this road in the first place. And again, there's nothing confusing about the aux busses in digital desks. You press a button, and you see everything related to the wanted aux bus. What's confusing?

Yes, I get that it's unfamiliar to you, and that might seem scary and complicated, but as you can see from so many others here it's really not that big a learning curve, and the benefits far outweigh any negatives.

I have a lovely 16-channel Calrec MiniMix which I love dearly, but it's the Yamaha DM1000 that I use on a daily basis because it's so much more capable, versatile and practical.... and it fits into the same space!

As I said earlier, "you have prejudiced, fixed and outdated negative views"... You're imagining problems that don't actually exist and that's stopping you from appreciating just how much easier this kind of solution would make your studio life and your music-making.

With the right digital mixer, you could have everything connected all the time and do all the routing digitally, saving your favourite setups as presets for instant recall. You'd never need to scrabble under desks hunting for cables of the right length again. You can send anything to anything, in any order with just a few buttons and dials, and you can see exactly what's going on in the display screen and on the faders.

All that's needed is an open mind and a little imagination.... :D

A far more practical solution than dreaming about huge Neve mixdown consoles...
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 28359
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Re: NEW - Neve console - announced today

Postby Sam Spoons » Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:00 pm

One of the most useful things I've found is that with a couple of button presses* I can see this :-

Image (© Sound on Sound)

that's a meter for every input and output all visible on the same page.

* I lied, it's actually 5 button presses, one one r meters button and four quick presses of the [right arrow] button :blush:
User avatar
Sam Spoons
Jedi Poster
Posts: 13403
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 1:00 am
Location: Manchester UK
Finally taking this recording lark seriously (and recording my Gypsy Jazz CD)........

Re: NEW - Neve console - announced today

Postby Arpangel » Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:07 pm

OK, what have I gott to loose, apart from a couple of grand.
Joking aside, I need lots of aux sends, probably about 4 sub-groups, at least 24 analogue inputs, line, not mic, although an expander of some sort would be OK.
Effects, well, I guess that’s a given.
Also, is it possible to assigne groups as aux sends? I notice on the X32 you have lots of things just called "outputs" what’s this? I also need a digital mixer that’s no bigger than rack mounting, not a "rack mixer" as such, just a mixer with faders etc.

:thumbup: :think:
User avatar
Arpangel
Jedi Poster
Posts: 5034
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2003 12:00 am

Re: NEW - Neve console - announced today

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:50 pm

Arpangel wrote:I need lots of aux sends, probably about 4 sub-groups, at least 24 analogue inputs, line, not mic... no bigger than rack mounting, a mixer with faders...

Yay! A shopping list! :D

There are plenty of rack-mounting digital desks with faders that will fit the bill. I'll let others make their own recommendations based on their own experiences. As I've said before, I use a Yamaha DM1000 which is a bit old-hat now in terms of its operating paradigm, but I know it well and it does everything I want and need.

The basic desk has 16 mic/line inputs, plus four extra line (omni) inputs (all on XLR), plus two stereo (AES3/SPDIF) digital inputs as standard. So 20 analogue line inputs as standard.

To extend that there are two plug-in mini-YGDAI card slots for extra inputs/outputs in various formats. Analogue input cards are available with either 4 XLR or 8 TRS or D-sub line channels. So you could easily expand the line input count to 24 or 28 with a single card, or even 32 or 36 analogue line inputs with both card slots if so desired.

The physical inputs can be assigned to any channel or monitoring input, or insert return.

The desk is structured with 8 groups, 8 auxes, and a stereo main output, and these can be assigned to any of the 12 physical analogue (omni) line outputs and two stereo digital outputs. Channels can be combined for stereo and multichannel applications.

Again, if you wanted more physical outputs you could use one of those mini-YGDAI card lots to provide additional analogue outputs if desired. So you could have 28 analogue line inputs and 20 analogue line outputs if you wanted, the latter being freely assigned from any of the auxes, groups, mains outputs, and channel insert sends.

One of the nice things with the Dm1000 is that you can 'stack' stereo channels vertically across the fader layers, so one physical fader operates a stereo channel, and you can do that on a per-channel basis. So in my setup, some faders are controlling the signals from mono synths, and some are controlling outputs from stereo synths, and I can choose the order and placement of them across the desk as I like.

If I wanted to , I could even have input faders and Aux or group send masters on the same surface layer for operational convenience if I needed to ride send levels at the same time as input levels.

...is it possible to assign groups as aux sends?

If you mean, can you use group outputs as extra 'aux' sends, then yes, of course you can.

I notice on the X32 you have lots of things just called "outputs" what’s this?
[/quote]

Most digital desks have a generic pol of physical inputs and outputs, and you assign them to the notional internal channel inputs/returns and master/aux/group outputs/sends, however you like.

A digital mixer is basically just a crosspoint signal router. Lots of inputs and lots of outputs, some analogue, some digital, and you decide which physical connections are associated with what notional signal paths. And within those signal paths, various signal processing can be applied and controlled in various ways for things like gain, pan, EQ, compression, metering, effects, routing and so on.

Most desks have a basic setup that emulates an analogue console structure, but they are all far more versatile than an analogue desk could ever be -- and you get instant recall for free!

Here's the quickstart guide for the DM1000: https://download.yamaha.com/files/tcm:39-325696

Now I'm not suggesting this is the ideal desk for you. By modern standards it's a bit clunky in its operating paradigm, as I said, but at least it will give you an idea of what's possible.

There are other, more modern, Yamaha desks, and some superb offerings from Allen&Heath, Presonus, Behringer and others some with more analogue-esque operating paradigms and more or less I/O capability.

But in the DM's favour, I have yet to find anything that it can't do, and I've had it doing some extraordinarily complicated and expansive broadcast stuff in the past with surround sound sources and multi-format mixdown outputs, and multiple cleanfeeds and all sorts...!

You could do worse than to check out the Soundcraft Si Performer 1:

Soundcraft Product Page

SOS Review

Thomann Price
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 28359
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Re: NEW - Neve console - announced today

Postby Dan LB » Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:49 pm

I’ve used the DM1000 on a regular basis also. It’s a great desk BUT as Hugh says, by today’s standards, it’s a bit clunky to setup and navigate, so for that reason alone I don’t think it would suit you. Same goes for the O1V and O2R - that architecture is so old hat and I fear it would frustrate you.


I’m shocked to find that the DM1000 is still over €6000! :o
User avatar
Dan LB
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1435
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 1:00 am
Location: Wicklow, Ireland

Re: NEW - Neve console - announced today

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:02 pm

Dan LB wrote:...it’s a bit clunky to setup and navigate, so for that reason alone I don’t think it would suit you.

I suspect that is true... but once you get your head around the concept it's actually pretty straightforward. But there is a learning curve, certainly.

I’m shocked to find that the DM1000 is still over €6000! :o

I'm not. It was listed at £4k in 2004 when I got mine, so £6k today is bang in line with inflation (in the UK) since its launch and it's a heck of a good desk for the money in terms of sound quality, capability, and reliability. There's nothing analogue for that money that comes anywhere close to what it can do.

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/yamaha-dm1000
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 28359
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Re: NEW - Neve console - announced today

Postby Trevor Johnson » Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:46 pm

Oh! Right. Silly Acoustical!

I know this is in parallel to the main theme of this thread, my apology, but this is a very interesting early history of the op-amp and its origins in the valve world.

https://www.analog.com/media/en/training-seminars/design-handbooks/Op-Amp-Applications/SectionH.pdf
Trevor Johnson
Regular
Posts: 326
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 12:00 am

Re: NEW - Neve console - announced today

Postby Arpangel » Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:32 pm

Given my needs, it looks like a digital desk, or an analogue patch bay.
The latter seems like it may be more suitable, I’ll give you the reasons.
No mater how many hardware I/0 the digital desk has, at some point it’s going to outgrow my rapidly expanding effects and synth collection. A patch bay would allow me to be as simple, or as complicated as I want, I reckon about four bays £500, and a small mixer, like I’ve got already, should fit the bill. A digital mixer is going to cost me initially around £3,000 all I have to do as my system expands is add more patch bays, cost, about £120 each.
I’ve been avoiding patch bays, but it looks like, I have to have them, I should have taken a nod from you guys, and friends who are involved in similar music to me.
User avatar
Arpangel
Jedi Poster
Posts: 5034
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2003 12:00 am

Re: NEW - Neve console - announced today

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:45 pm

Arpangel wrote:Given my needs, it looks like a digital desk, or an analogue patch bay.
The latter seems like it may be more suitable, I’ll give you the reasons.

A patchbay solution was suggested quite some time ago and it was rejected...

Also, while a patchbay is excellent for interconnected equipment in different chains and sequences, remember it doesn't do the same thing as a mixing console -- it can't combine signals. And there's are potential practical issues of dealing with interconnecting unbalanced and balanced sources, ground loops and so on.

But a system could be put together that would work given enough careful planning and construction. It really is ALL in the planning, though.

No mater how many hardware I/0 the digital desk has, at some point it’s going to outgrow my rapidly expanding effects and synth collection.

Many consoles of the size you suggest can handle 48 or more mix channels, and various combinations of I/O could realise that. Are you really likely to go that far?

A patch bay would allow me to be as simple, or as complicated as I want, I reckon about four bays £500, and a small mixer, like I’ve got already, should fit the bill.

Excellent... Make it so.

(But remember you get what you pay for... I've just put in four 48-way A-type patchbays in my studio and they cost £200 each. There are cheaper, obviously, and there are more expensive too. Reliability, convenience, and labelling are all important considerations...)
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 28359
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Re: NEW - Neve console - announced today

Postby Arpangel » Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:50 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
Arpangel wrote:Given my needs, it looks like a digital desk, or an analogue patch bay.
The latter seems like it may be more suitable, I’ll give you the reasons.

A patchbay solution was suggested quite some time ago and it was rejected...

Also, while a patchbay is excellent for interconnected equipment in different chains and sequences, remember it doesn't do the same thing as a mixing console -- it can't combine signals. And there's are potential practical issues of dealing with interconnecting unbalanced and balanced sources, ground loops and so on.

But a system could be put together that would work given enough careful planning and construction. It really is ALL in the planning, though.

No mater how many hardware I/0 the digital desk has, at some point it’s going to outgrow my rapidly expanding effects and synth collection.

Many consoles of the size you suggest can handle 48 or more mix channels, and various combinations of I/O could realise that. Are you really likely to go that far?

A patch bay would allow me to be as simple, or as complicated as I want, I reckon about four bays £500, and a small mixer, like I’ve got already, should fit the bill.

Excellent... Make it so.

Given the choice, between a digital desk and patch bays, I’m going the patch bay route,
I’ll order them tomorrow. It’s got nothing to do with expenditure, it’s just the learning curve of the desk just isn’t on the cards.
User avatar
Arpangel
Jedi Poster
Posts: 5034
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2003 12:00 am

Re: NEW - Neve console - announced today

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:55 pm

Arpangel wrote:I’m going the patch bay route, I’ll order them tomorrow.

Wow! That was speedy planning! It took me three weeks to plan and optimise my patchbay connections!
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 28359
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

PreviousNext