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[CS70]

Thanks for your suggestion :) Unfortunately it doesn’t work for me - I guess I’m just old fashioned that I prefer to read from paper and not a screen!

I get that, but I dont think there's a single DAW that comes with paper manuals any longer.

[ConcertinaChap]

Or just about any other significant piece of software nowadays ...

sigh

[ManFromGlass]

I'd always keep the manuals for old gear tucked away. I still have some collecting dust like the hardware. But if I ever sell the gear then I'll have the manual which to me would be a bonus.
I suspect the young buyer will toss the manual though! :D

[forumuser653351]

I thought I would give a bit of an update with all this.
1) I’ve reconfigured the Logic workspace and saved it as a template so I have a good starting point where everything works for me
2) just by posting the post was a cathartic experience and helped shift a block I had with re-engaging with Logic
3) I appreciate everyones response and advice, it’s a very useful process to have a dialogue, which helped me move forward
4) I have printed off the Logic X key commands so I can have it with me on paper and then I can decide if I want to personalise them or not
5) I might look into getting a good book on Logic X but YouTube has been useful
6) every time I start a new project in Logic I’m going to learn something new or find a better way of working and use it in that project
7) I’ll keep an open mind on other DAWs but I need to get clear on what I want from a DAW, and what I’m doing in music/sound in general, and how to best achieve that - ongoing exploration!
8) I’m going to make more use of the SOS forum, as it’s so helpful!
Cheer all :thumbup:
Ian

[desmond]

Great, sounds like you've made some positive progress, no matter which way you end up going. :thumbup:

[Terrible.dee]

Well, possible things like key commands are different from previous versions

My key commands have largely stayed the same since the 90s, bar a few expansions along the way! But that's because I use my own set, not the default set. And yes, they do change from time to time, mostly to accommodate new features and to keep a layout that make sense, but you can customise them all, so change them to how you want them to be, don't let Apple dictate to you how *they* think you should work!

Don't forget, if you do switch, *everything* will be different commands, so you'll have to unlearn/learn new ones anyway.

People don't customise key commands enough, imo. Sure, some people are happy mousing around (ugh!), but spending a little time bring all your commonly used tools together makes a massive difference to a fast and efficient workflow.

The only significant key command change they enforced was a little while back, in that Apple decided you should no longer be able to use the tab key for anything other than the system use - which was a bit annoying, as I had a bunch of long-term key commands set up around the tab key, which I had to change to something else...

and plugins/instruments have changed quite a lot.

In general, the functionality/controls stayed exactly the same, they just updated the layouts for retina-friendly and resizable graphics. They did add some new plugins, but again, you don't have to use them.

I'm just trying to explore where you feel the blocks are, in case something practical can be done about them. If some of these things really are along the "I don't like having to deal with change" thing, then switching to another DAW is not going to be an immediate solution for that! ;)

I think basically I used to be able to use previous versions really well and I can’t use version 10 as well, and it just doesn’t feel as logical as I used to find it.

It's difficult to explore without seeing you work, but the workflow hasn't really changed much - if anything, a lot of stuff works better than before, but yes, some of that involves change and some people just don't like dealing with change! :)

BTW, Unless you're on High Sierra onwards, you can still run LP9, if you're really happier there.

Oh and there isn't a printed manual - I get frustrated having to keep looking stuff up online all the time!

I have a box with Notator/Logic printed manuals going back to 1987. It weighs about half a ton. I'm *much* happier with the virtual docs* stuff, but ymmv! :)

*Apart from Apple's Help application, which is still, and always has been, terrrible...

I feel I’m craving simplicity and too much choice and complexity gets in the way.

Yes, it's not an uncommon feeling, and is a big reason some folks are moving away from a computer/screen-centric workflow - not as flexible for sure, but more immediate, and perhaps lets you focus on the music/performances more. Maybe you're really after a break from the DAW altogether..?

God......that HELP drop down.....for Logic it is beyond useless, you type in the most basic topics and get nothing...

I feel the OP, but am surprised at your history. A lifetime Logic user shouldn't feel any different about 10 then 9.... aside from some new toys, I didn't notice a huge difference, well, it looked a bit better..

The problem most people have is when they come to Logic from Protools, which is what I did,

Good Lord.....you sit there wondering how anyone could have been so stupid as to ".........." that happened over and over

The thing about Protools is that I never really had to "learn" to use it, everything worked the way you would EXPECT it to work, things were where they would LOGICALLY be,

My reason for abandoning Protools was because I was getting out of producing/engineering (Which I hated) and focusing exclusively on composing/songwriting,

Though I made money at the latter, I was going to rely on it for my entire income, that was scary but I HAD to do it "Protooling" Vocals and drums all day was killing my soul,

To this day I can't look at Protools, it just reminds me deeply of hating my work...

...Anyway, I am a proficient Logic user today and can tell you that it has major issues, major issues that they don't admit (I had to abandon it and have only recently begun using it again in a much more limited role, because of not being able to use it with external instruments, Logic (Apple) denying there was a problem forever then out of nowhere admitting there "Used to maybe" be one, then the logic forum which is patrolled by Apple Astroturfers who are there to shout down anyone who criticizes the program and scream USER ERROR!!! at issue both I and many others KNOW are bugs. They maintain the forum to try and control the narrative not to help people...it all left such a bad taste in my mouth, just to know that I wasn't dealing with an ethical company was a drag...

Here's the truth man, if you are giving your DAW that much attention then the problem is elsewhere...you shouldn't LOVE or HATE your DAW, its not that important.

A DAW should get the hell out of your way, do what you tell it, and take up no mental space.

It shouldn't be a critical part of your process or anything, it should just WORK

If something about Logic doesn't WORK for you (Like it didn't for me) get another DAW you'll soon learn that they are all essentially the same thing and only matter in so far as finding the one that stays out of your way the most.

I record to tape these days and do my MIDI sequencing on an MPC, I back up stems digitally and occasionally bounce to and from digital for editing (Though I try not to, I hate modern editing)

So yes, in conclusion, I think you are expecting your DAW to do things for you that it can't,

YOU make the music, the DAW is NOT your writing partner or Co/producer its just a crappy sounding tape machine with detailed editing

[forumuser653351]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Terrible.dee, very interesting and helpful, I really appreciate it. Yes, the ‘help’ function in Logic x is useless! You mentioned coming from Pro Tools to Logic, this may be part of the issue for me. I used to use both Logic and Pro Tools for different things, maybe what I’m remembering about Logic was actually what I did on Pro Tools. In particular I used Pro Tools for recording, editing and mixing and Logic for composing and MIDI. Now I’m trying to do everything in Logic - no wonder I’m having difficulties.
Yes, I totally agree with you that the DAW should stay out the way and do what I want it to do. However, I do see that there is a learning curve in any technology, once it’s learnt, then it should stay out the way. Having said that I agree that Pro Tools worked as expected when coming from the old school mixing desk and tape. Lastly, for whatever reason, I did experience a jolt when moving from Logic 9, to Logic X (transition between previous versions was fine, no issues at all). Don’t know why, and yes, it doesn’t make sense but it was, and is, a difficult transition.

[ManFromGlass]

We live in the age of "we can try and make the software rock solid or we can add a sexy new feature"
All DAWs are a compromise. Find the one that you can live with. I grew up with Logic. I can rock with Logic as I know the work-arounds. It's a compromise. There are bugs from Logic 5 I think it is that still haven't been addressed. I have to use protools. It drives me nuts. Even though I came from tape I don't get protools.

As for tape - it was a compromise too. How many days, months, years in total have I lost waiting for tape to rewind or machines to sync up? My razor blade skills were ok but I was no master at that art form.

Logic and I are mostly friends but sometimes Logic does stupid stuff. Friends do that. I found a pretty good method that puts minimal barriers in the way for recording when the inspiration hits and the right brain is firing away and hurry up hit record before I forget the idea!

In the end I think it's attitude- you know you are working with somewhat flawed software or even hardware. Suck it up and make music. And try and have some fun otherwise it's just a dumb job and music should never be that.

[Forum Admin]

As a Studio One Pro migrant after ditching Logic when it went to X, I’d like to point out that S1 lets you set up key commands quickly to match what Logic uses, easing the transition, and you can use Tab keys in your custom shortcuts.

S1 also lets you hide plugins and VIs in its browser.

It also has a superb integrated context-sensitive Help manual.

If you’re now happy with Logic Pro X, fine — if not, checkout S1.

[stormymondays]

I was a ProTools user at another studio and I switched to Logic when I setup my own studio a few years ago. I still don't love Logic but it doesn't get in the way. Customizing the interface and key commands, as discussed, is essential.

I also highly recommend these books:
http://dingdingmusic.com/------logic-pr ... nuals.html

[forumuser653351]

Thanks Forum Admin on your thoughts, I am considering Studio One Pro. I just need to have a serious think about what I want to achieve in sound and music and then compare Studio One Pro with Logic.

Thanks for the book link stormymondays, I’ll check it out.