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Glyn Johns mixing techniques???

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Glyn Johns mixing techniques???

Postby Eargasm95 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:23 pm

okay so i was in the studio and I recorded my drums in the style of Glyn Johns (overheads equidistant from the snare) thats 2 overheads a kick and the snare mic.

my questions are.......

How loud should the overheads be against the other drums?

what separate EQ and compression settings would you recommend for each of the overheads? please be specific as to which overhead mic you mean!

what pan settings would you recommend for the overheads?

any help with this would be greatly appreciated!

hope you're all good!

Gary.
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Re: Glyn Johns mixing techniques???

Postby CS70 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:26 pm

You pan them. In general you want the overhead on the floor tom side panned hard. The other, you pan it in the other direction until it sounds good - trust your ears, not some recipe.

Basically you try to give a 3d feel of the drums - from the top and the side, but without comb-filtering the snare in the process (hence the equidistance). Once you get a good, balanced overall sound for the kit, you insert kick and snare mic.

EQ, there's no rules, but if well recorded in a good room (and if you they weren't, it's hard to pull off) there should be scant need of it. As always you may or may not high pass the overheads but since they make a lot of the kit you probably want keep it all or most of it.

Don't remember doing anything special the few times I tried, maybe if there's many tom hits, a little bass boost to the overhead can get a bit more ooomph, a little high shelf boost if needed with ribbons. But again let you ears be judge.

It's gonna be an "old school" sound anyways, especially if you use ribbons for the overheads.. but in any case you capture a lot of room reflections, hence you really need a good sounding, large-ish room to pull it off.
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Re: Glyn Johns mixing techniques???

Postby Ramirez » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:31 pm

If your mics are equidistant from the snare and you want to keep the snare central in the stereo image, then you need to pan both mics the same
amount from centre. I usually hard pan them.
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Re: Glyn Johns mixing techniques???

Postby blinddrew » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:37 pm

I'm aware that I'm setting myself against a bunch of much better and more experienced mixers, but what the hell...
Personally I don't like hard-panned overheads for any kind of 'real' drum sound, it makes the kit sound 20ft wide to me. I'll generally start around a 50% pan but play around until the virtual image seems to be 'drumkit width'. But it's generally around that 50% mark.
If you're not aiming for a real drum image then do whatever sounds good. :)
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Re: Glyn Johns mixing techniques???

Postby CS70 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:11 pm

blinddrew wrote:I'm aware that I'm setting myself against a bunch of much better and more experienced mixers, but what the hell...
Personally I don't like hard-panned overheads for any kind of 'real' drum sound, it makes the kit sound 20ft wide to me. I'll generally start around a 50% pan but play around until the virtual image seems to be 'drumkit width'. But it's generally around that 50% mark.
If you're not aiming for a real drum image then do whatever sounds good. :)

Well the thing with the GJ setup is that the second overhead is not really overhead, but really on the side of the kit (where the floor tom is). That's why you hard-pan it - because it's hard-panned in reality. :)
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Re: Glyn Johns mixing techniques???

Postby The Elf » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:43 pm

I say hard-pan the overheads. There's not so much width that it will sound strange - in fact, not panning them fully usually sounds odd to my ears. The natural width of the kit is living between those mic's, so hard-panning won't push the kit any wider.

Pan any close mic's to match the overheads. You'll find that the hat and toms will only need 20-40% panning to sound natural.

HPF, but don't compress. If you really do feel you need for compression be very sparing.
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Re: Glyn Johns mixing techniques???

Postby Eargasm95 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:41 pm

Thanks for all of the insight so far!

can anybody tell me how loud the overheads should be please?
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Re: Glyn Johns mixing techniques???

Postby hobbyist » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:05 am

Eargasm95 wrote:okay so i was in the studio and I recorded my drums in the style of Glyn Johns (overheads equidistant from the snare) thats 2 overheads a kick and the snare mic.

my questions are.......

How loud should the overheads be against the other drums?

what separate EQ and compression settings would you recommend for each of the overheads? please be specific as to which overhead mic you mean!

what pan settings would you recommend for the overheads?

any help with this would be greatly appreciated!

hope you're all good!

Gary.

The documented method that I could find:
Johns developed the "Glyn Johns Method", which keeps one mike hoisted several feet overhead to achieve natural perspective of the whole kit, as well as one off to the side (not far from the floor tom tom), and one near to the bass drum.

The key to the method is to keep both the overhead mic and the side-mic equidistant from (and pointed at) the centre of the snare, aimed in such a way of forming a triangular pattern (with the three corners being the snare, the side-mic, and the overhead mic).

To answer your questions:
OH clearly less loud.
No EQ or compression if it is for natural perspective.

Overhead in the center of wherever you put the other two to keep that triangle pattern.
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Re: Glyn Johns mixing techniques???

Postby Dave B » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:29 am

Eargasm95 wrote:can anybody tell me how loud the overheads should be please?

That's a decision for you as the mixer surely? The overheads will have the sound of the whole kit, so it's as loud as you want the drums to be in the track. The kick and snare mics are just reinforcement really - they allow you to bring up the elements that may be getting lost (the kick) and give you some option to push the snare up a bit in the mix.

FWIW, in that scenario, I would start with the overheads and then raise the k+s to taste as you add in the other instruments.
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Re: Glyn Johns mixing techniques???

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:51 am

I'm struggling to understand why you chose to use a technique that you
clearly don't yet understand! Surely, it makes more sense to at least understand the concept of a technique before you start using it? ;)

Eargasm95 wrote:How loud should the overheads be against the other drums?

They can be at whatever level and balance you like -- you're the recording engineer and producer! But you should be aware that the 'overheads' provide the entire overall drum set sound, so you would normally be balancing the accent mics (kick and -- only if really needed -- snare) to the overheads!

what separate EQ and compression settings would you recommend for each of the overheads?

Personally, I'd use none at all. I'd get the wanted sound character by choosing the right mics -- ribbons or capacitors or whatever....

Since the 'overheads' capture the entire set (including the kick) you certainly won't want to high-pass filter them like you would with more conventional (cymbal-only) overheads. And I'd probably leave any compression to a bus of the entire drum set mic rather than the individual mics -- unless you're after an unusual specific sound character.

Bear in mind that the GJ 3/4 mic drum recording technique is quite naturalistic and open-sounding. It will only work in a decent-sounding acoustic space. In a small boxy bedroom it will sound very small and boxy! :-)

what pan settings would you recommend for the overheads?

Depends how wide you want the drum set to sound. Most people seem to have them panned fully left-right. But it largely depends on how wide you want the drum set to sound, and what the room acoustic is like. GJ recommends half left-right, and I think that's a good place to start.

any help with this would be greatly appreciated!

There's quite a lot written on the web about the GJ drum technique, and most of it is sensible:

https://www.recordingrevolution.com/the ... ng-method/

https://www.wikiaudio.org/drum-micing-g ... technique/

https://www.musictech.net/tutorials/tec ... ns-method/

http://jonstinson.com/the-glynn-johns-t ... ing-setup/

http://jonstinson.com/more-glyn-johns-d ... hn-bonham/

https://producelikeapro.com/blog/glyn-j ... crophones/

https://www.liveabout.com/drum-recordin ... od-1817865
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Re: Glyn Johns mixing techniques???

Postby Dr Huge Longjohns » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:22 am

Why not go straight to source to see what the man himself does!!! The GJ technique is essentially THREE mics, not four. That's the whole point really. Once you put a close snare mic in you're sort of defeating the object to a certain extent.

Here is the great man:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fyy55ALu18Y
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Re: Glyn Johns mixing techniques???

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:37 am

Dr Huge Longjohns wrote:The GJ technique is essentially THREE mics, not four. That's the whole point really. Once you put a close snare mic in you're sort of defeating the object to a certain extent.

To be fair, in the video you linked he does actually say the snare mic is an optional extra that he often prints but doesn't always use.

He also states that he pans the 'overheads' to half left-right rather than full width.

And that he runs the preamps 10dB hotter than 'normal' (backing off the fader 10dB to compensate through the console signal path -- this obviously being to gain a little 'edge' or crunch from the preamps on transients.

H
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Re: Glyn Johns mixing techniques???

Postby CS70 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:38 pm

Eargasm95 wrote:Thanks for all of the insight so far!

can anybody tell me how loud the overheads should be please?

Yes, just at the right level.
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Re: Glyn Johns mixing techniques???

Postby Watchmaker » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:20 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:I'm struggling to understand why you chose to use a technique that you clearly don't yet understand! Surely, it makes more sense to at least understand the concept of a technique before you start using it? ;)

Sometimes understanding comes through experimentation, que no? I say "flail away!"
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Re: Glyn Johns mixing techniques???

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:40 pm

Sorry -- I could have written that more clearly! I'm all for learning through personal experimentation to gain hands-on experience, and encourage exactly that technique when I'm working with students... But always from a position of knowledge and understanding first, so they have a reasonable idea of what to expect and how to optimise the technique

It just seemed odd to me that the OP chose to use that very well-known technique for mic placement without apparently having any idea what to do with the tracks once they were recorded!

Nevertheless, the collective forum wisdom has shone through as always. :D :thumbup:
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Re: Glyn Johns mixing techniques???

Postby CS70 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:45 pm

Dr Huge Longjohns wrote:Why not go straight to source to see what the man himself does!!! The GJ technique is essentially THREE mics, not four. That's the whole point really. Once you put a close snare mic in you're sort of defeating the object to a certain extent.


Why? He does say that he occasionally uses a snare mic.

The point, as I've always seen it, is that with the side mic you get two "angles" of drums - so you get reflections that color the sound (from mid range up) differently than having the overheads in the usual all top position.

Also, it colors the sound more: due to the position of the side mic and the idea that the snare has the same distance from the two mics (which is nothing different than any technique using two overheads, btw), you will always get quite a bit of room. Which is good when you have a good room and maybe the band playing all together. With more modern techniques overheads you can get them *very* low and reduce the signal to reflection ratio much more dramatically.

Nothing of this is changed by having a snare or a kick mic..
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Re: Glyn Johns mixing techniques???

Postby blinddrew » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:44 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:He also states that he pans the 'overheads' to half left-right rather than full width.
Just me and Glyn then... ;)
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Re: Glyn Johns mixing techniques???

Postby The Elf » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:56 pm

blinddrew wrote:
Hugh Robjohns wrote:He also states that he pans the 'overheads' to half left-right rather than full width.
Just me and Glyn then... ;)
:lol:

If you want an example of how weird Glyn's drum panning can be, try 'When the Levee Breaks'. Very odd! I suspect the reason he pulled the panning in is because the drums were often off-centre.
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Re: Glyn Johns mixing techniques???

Postby blinddrew » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:30 am

Cheers Elf, will give that another listen with that in mind. :)
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Re: Glyn Johns mixing techniques???

Postby mammy » Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:55 am

You asked the hi hat.listen me.hı hat level should not be high.you can feel it in the mix.solo the hi hat and close the solo and listen the mix.then you adjust your hi hat volume level.if you hear it in the mix level is ok. Hi hat eq tip :cut until 250 hz and boost 15 khz about 10db .you will see the difference .and dont forget .use delay and reverb.finally if the hi hat Sss sounds is very high you can add de esser to the hi hat channel.
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