You are here

Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

All about the tools and techniques involved in capturing sound, in the studio or on location.

Re: Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

Postby Aural Reject » Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:47 pm

forumuser840717 wrote:...my earlier rant...

Careful or you might wander into four mics on a bar territory and there’ll be tears :headbang: :beamup:
User avatar
Aural Reject
Frequent Poster
Posts: 939
Joined: Fri May 02, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Lancashire born, living in Yorkshire :s

Re: Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

Postby Arpangel » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:23 am

Thanks for all the help, OK, so it’s not advisable to use them for ORTF., as such.
I tried them last night on a stereo bar, a short spaced A-B pair, just over the middle of my grand piano, angled slightly aiming at bass and top strings, sounded very good, very clear, and they really did tame a slight boom that can occur in this room.
I’m going to try these on marimba, as that can really sound boomy, and use my MKH's on the piano.
I need a good selection of stereo bars, of different widths, to experiment with, but I’m having trouble finding ones that are wide enough, I’ve got a couple of really short ones, but they are a bit limiting for some things.
I think these CCM22's sound very good, and for what I paid for them, I’m definitely not going to sell them, I think they’re going to be a very useful addition to my mic collection.
User avatar
Arpangel
Frequent Poster (Level2)
Posts: 3007
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2003 12:00 am

Re: Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

Postby Bob Bickerton » Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:15 am

Well joking aside, it has to be remembered that ORTF is just one, albeit commonly used, stereo array out of a myriad of variations.

There’s nothing to stop you using your mics at different angles and spacing - thus the apps mentioned can be a great reference.

Makes me think a more accurate reference when describing stereo arrays is to note the mutual angle/spacing and polar pattern (though in preference microphone model number), ie 110/17/cardioid/MKH8040 which is what I do when I want to replicate an array.

Moving on, K&M have a range of bars, the 23560 is excellent but probably more than you need, then there’s the 236. There’s heaps of options from other manufacturers too.

Bob
User avatar
Bob Bickerton
Jedi Poster
Posts: 4038
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 1:00 am
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
http://www.bickerton.co.nz

Re: Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

Postby Aural Reject » Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:30 am

These are quite nice and not badly priced...

https://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/Gravity-MSSTB01-Pro-Stereo-Bar/2WBF

As Bob says, there are lots available from K&M (the 23560 is one of those beasts that offers lots of options but it's 850mm long so probably a little overkill for your scenarios...unless you're still potentially looking at ensemble recording like you were a while back), generics from Studiospares, some rather fancy and (IMO) ridiculously priced options from manufacturers such as Grace...it really depends on what you want and what you're trying to achieve.
User avatar
Aural Reject
Frequent Poster
Posts: 939
Joined: Fri May 02, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Lancashire born, living in Yorkshire :s

Re: Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:07 am

If you want a properly wide bar, I can recommend the Manfrotto Mic Mount:
Image
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/manfrotto-mic-mount

It's a bit more expensive than the K&M wide bars, but a lot cheaper than the Grace Design and DPA bars, and it has some operational benefits, such as being able to keep the mounting pegs on the mic suspensions, and just drop them in to the pre-positioned sockets for much faster rigging and de-rigging. It also doesn't flex like the long K&M bar with heavy LDC mics.
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 26330
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Re: Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

Postby The Elf » Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:48 am

I like the Sabra Som mounts, since they cannot spin around their hex bar. I bought the cheapest bar with four mounts, then a few lengths of 'non-audio' hex bar, which proved to be very ecomonical!

Image
http://www.transaudiogroup.com/products/sabra-som/st4/
User avatar
The Elf
Jedi Poster
Posts: 13766
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Sheffield, UK
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Re: Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

Postby Moroccomoose » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:00 pm

I'm just looking at the Neumann gain tool, can comment if I'm setting it up and understanding correctly..

I am considering an SM57 going into a Profire 2626 interface.

The SM57 manual states a sensitivity of -54.5 dBV
The Profire manual states for the mic inputs 'Max Input Level + 6.5dBu' and gain is >53dB (let's say max 53dB)

From inputting these specs, the loudest sound at the capsule that I could record before digital clipping is 99.7dB SPL.
If I engage the 20 dB pad, I adjust the gain to be 33dB, resulting in -20.1dBFS signal in the DAW
Alternatively, turning the gain knob on the mic pre down to just over half way to achieve the same effect (ignoring pre amp colouration).

Cheers,

Stu.
Moroccomoose
Regular
Posts: 207
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:00 am
Location: Staffordshire
 

Re: Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

Postby Aural Reject » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:09 pm

The Elf wrote:I like the Sabra Som mounts, since they cannot spin around their hex bar. I bought the cheapest bar with four mounts, then a few lengths of 'non-audio' hex bar, which proved to be very ecomonical!

Image
http://www.transaudiogroup.com/products/sabra-som/st4/

Did you formally import them Mr Elf?

I used to have an ST-2 that I think I sat on or something and broke....I originally got that one from Canford...but none of the UK distributors on the Sabra Som website carry them anymore?
User avatar
Aural Reject
Frequent Poster
Posts: 939
Joined: Fri May 02, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Lancashire born, living in Yorkshire :s

Re: Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:42 pm

Moroccomoose wrote:The SM57 manual states a sensitivity of -54.5 dBV

The published specs here: https://www.shure.eu/products/microphones/sm57 ...state 1.6mv/Pa or -56dBV... but it's only a couple of decibels difference so won't affect the figures massively.

From inputting these specs, the loudest sound at the capsule that I could record before digital clipping is 99.7dB SPL.

Yes, or 101.1 dB SPL if you use the specs from the Shure website.

But that is with the preamp gain maxed out, of course.

I don't know what the minimum preamp gain is, but if it's 0dB (eg, 20dB minimum but with the pad engaged), then you could handle something approaching 152-154 dB SPL at the mic (depending which sensitivity figure you use).

Useful calculator tool, isn't it? :-D
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 26330
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Re: Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

Postby Moroccomoose » Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:18 pm

:thumbup: Thanks, I'll look forward to testing this when everyone is out the house!
Moroccomoose
Regular
Posts: 207
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:00 am
Location: Staffordshire
 

Re: Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:41 pm

The only slight fly in the ointment is that we don't know if the +6.5dBu limit is the clipping point of the preamp or the 0dBFS point of the converter... or both.

H
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 26330
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Re: Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

Postby The Elf » Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:27 pm

Aural Reject wrote:
The Elf wrote:I like the Sabra Som mounts, since they cannot spin around their hex bar. I bought the cheapest bar with four mounts, then a few lengths of 'non-audio' hex bar, which proved to be very ecomonical!
Did you formally import them Mr Elf?
Long time, back, so I don't recall. I can see suppliers on Amazon US, so I assume they'd send?
User avatar
The Elf
Jedi Poster
Posts: 13766
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Sheffield, UK
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Re: Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

Postby Ramirez » Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:32 pm

Arpangel wrote:Thanks for all the help, OK, so it’s not advisable to use them for ORTF

It’s not that you shouldn’t use the mics set up like that - it could be perfectly viable. Its just that it wouldn’t be called ORTF.

In other words, you can’t use anything other than cardioids and call it ORTF. C’est impossible.

But you can use different mics in exactly the same positions nonetheless.
Ramirez
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1030
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:00 am
Location: Bethesda, Cymru
Bill Withers while Tom Waits, and Stan Getz

Re: Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

Postby Arpangel » Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:27 am

I need a stand that enables me to have the stereo bar flat, not on its side, which happens if I use a standard boom arm, the bar is vertical, rather than horizontal, if you get what I mean, and sometimes it makes certain arrays difficult to align.
Hugh, I’d just like the option of using slightly wider bar, for our live recordings, or if our instrumentation changes in the future.
User avatar
Arpangel
Frequent Poster (Level2)
Posts: 3007
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2003 12:00 am

Re: Using wide cardioids as an ORTF pair?

Postby Aural Reject » Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:05 am

Arpangel wrote:I need a stand that enables me to have the stereo bar flat, not on its side, which happens if I use a standard boom arm, the bar is vertical, rather than horizontal, if you get what I mean, and sometimes it makes certain arrays difficult to align.
Hugh, I’d just like the option of using slightly wider bar, for our live recordings, or if our instrumentation changes in the future.

Widgets exist to get round things like this should it be absolutely necessary. For example:

https://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Li ... tands/11UU
User avatar
Aural Reject
Frequent Poster
Posts: 939
Joined: Fri May 02, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Lancashire born, living in Yorkshire :s

PreviousNext