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Midi CC learn with control surface

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Re: Midi CC learn with control surface

Postby redlester » Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:09 pm

desmond wrote:If you're in plugin edit mode here and are controlling the dynamics parameter, then you are generating automation as the plugin parameter changes. In this case, the "Dynamics" parameter is exposed to host automation - and that is what you are using.

Understood.

desmond wrote:*However*, the "Dynamics" control *also* responds to normal MIDI - the mod wheel. So - as an alternative method - you can play your eg string parts and use the mod wheel to control dynamics instead. In this case, the CC#1 data is controlling the Dynamics slider, and is recorded in MIDI regions in the normal way. This is straight MIDI control of a plugin parameter, not automation. When you move the mod wheel in this case, and the Dynamics slider in Kontakt is changing, Kontakt/Albion *is not* generating automation events (because otherwise, you could end up with two sets of conflicting data trying to control the same parameter).

Why could you have two sets? You mean if you were to use the mod wheel and move the slider with the mouse simultaneously?

desmond wrote:(Now - you could, if you want to, use Logic's controller assignments to directly learn MIDI CC#1 to the Albion Dynamics parameter. In this case, as we've seen previously, the CC#1 is blocked from reaching the sequencer, and instead controls the Dynamics parameter directly, and thus generates automation events.)

I think this is the bit I am missing.

desmond wrote:If you use Logic's controller assignments to *learn* the incoming MIDI messages from your TouchOSC controller, and map to the Dynamics parameter from Kontakt, the sliders will now be directly manipulating the Dynamics parameter, and thus Kontakt will be generating automation events.

OK now I know what to look for, I've pinpointed page 1109 of the Logic 10.5 manual, which describes assigning a controller in Easy view, and hey presto, I can now write the automation with my iPad in the way I had originally assumed it would work (but now have a handle on why it doesn't). :bouncy:
(Although the manual says Easy view, it actually opened for me in the scary looking Expert view, but I don't care because it still worked).

Thanks so much for all this. Looking forward to the details of Region automation! :ugeek:
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Re: Midi CC learn with control surface

Postby desmond » Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:16 pm

redlester wrote:Why could you have two sets? You mean if you were to use the mod wheel and move the slider with the mouse simultaneously?

If moving the mod wheel was changing the Dynamics parameter, and that was *also* generating automation events in response to those changes, then you're ending up with two sets of potential source data - MIDI CC recorded in regions, and parameter automation in the automation system, which can lead to confusion (eg "I edited my automation to make Dynamics go down, but it's not going down?" because there's also a set of MIDI CC data you didn't edit telling it to do something different).

It's just potentially confusing, which is why it's implemented in the way it is - to let you use automation or MIDI control, whichever works best for the users' needs.

redlester wrote:
desmond wrote:(Now - you could, if you want to, use Logic's controller assignments to directly learn MIDI CC#1 to the Albion Dynamics parameter. In this case, as we've seen previously, the CC#1 is blocked from reaching the sequencer, and instead controls the Dynamics parameter directly, and thus generates automation events.)

I think this is the bit I am missing.

Then maybe go back and re-read where I first talk about Logic's controller assignments, if you're not sure about how this works and what it's for.

redlester wrote:OK now I know what to look for, I've pinpointed page 1109 of the Logic 10.5 manual, which describes assigning a controller in Easy view, and hey presto, I can now write the automation with my iPad in the way I had originally assumed it would work (but now have a handle on why it doesn't). :bouncy:

Great!
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Re: Midi CC learn with control surface

Postby desmond » Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:49 pm

*deep breath*

This sums up the main differences between TBA and RBA:
https://help.apple.com/logicpro/mac/10. ... cp967649d0

In short, track-based automation is like the old mixing desk automation system, and has nothing to do directly with the stuff recorded on the tape machine. If you edited your vocal track on the tape machine to be one bar later, the automation recorded on the mixer would also have to be edited to move one bar later to sound the same.

Because people always want more (*hello, human nature!*) and people are using automation for more sophisticated things than just mixer changes (eg, synth filter changes and so on), it made sense to be able to offer automation that was tied to the region, so that if you moved/copied the region, the automation also went with it, independently of whatever mixer/track automation you were doing.

Here's where the MIDI vs automation thing gets a little tricksy.

Previously, MIDI and automation were two completely different concepts, and was only really confused when people were trying to use MIDI controllers to control host automation stuff, like faders, pans, plugin parameters etc.

In earlier Logic versions, there was an editing tool called "Hyperdraw". Let's say you had recorded a region with some mod wheel data in it. By selecting the region and choosing Hyperdraw -> Mod wheel, the region display would show the mod wheel data with lines, curves and points (like the automation system) and you could edit and redraw MIDI controller data here which would edit and create the underlying MIDI events in the region.

Coolio. But this is also how people would expect region-based automation to work too - so they *combined the two features together*.

This is great, but now when people say "I'm doing automation on my region" the word no longer has a direct meaning of "host automation", as opposed to "editing MIDI data", as the region-based automation can show either regular mixer/plugin/host automation parameters, but also regular MIDI CC's. And it still has the read/touch/etc automation modes you expect of the automation system, even if you're using MIDI CC's, just to really nail the hammer in.

So it just confused the concepts of automation and MIDI by smooshing them together for folks who were already a little confused by the two things (I see this a lot on Logic forums).

So yes - with RBA, you could choose your Kontakt -> Dynamics parameter, in which case you would be using "host automation" stuff underneath, and your automation events would be stored inside the region, or you could instead choose MIDI -> Modulation, in which case you would be creating/editing regular MIDI data in the region, but with the automation mode tools available. In each case, the editing mechanisms would be the same.

So now when someone says "I'm automating my pitch bend" you can't necessarily infer exactly what they are talking about, as people are very fuzzy on underlying conceptual concepts these days. I guess there's a lot of them, but... *sigh*
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Re: Midi CC learn with control surface

Postby redlester » Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:30 pm

That all makes sense. Excellent.

I have looked briefly in the manual for this but can't see it; is it possible to set Logic to default all tracks to Region automation instead of Track automation? Or would I need to set that up manually then save it as a template?
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Re: Midi CC learn with control surface

Postby desmond » Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:04 pm

Those are the kinds of setups and preferences you configure in your startup working template, yes - that kind of thing is exactly what templates are for... :thumbup:

(You can just select all tracks, then change one to "Region" automation, and they'll all change, so it's a one click thing, anyway...)
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Re: Midi CC learn with control surface

Postby redlester » Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:22 pm

Postscript to this: I can see now the difference spelled out in the Logic interface.

If using the capture record to convert MIDI CC to automation it displays the automation parameter as (for example) "Modulation". Whereas if I use Learn Assignment on the plugin and input the automation that way, it labels it as "<Plugin name> - Dynamics" which is much easier to follow on a large complex project.

Sorry for hijacking this thread, but it's helped me a lot and hopefully will help others.
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Re: Midi CC learn with control surface

Postby redlester » Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:24 pm

desmond wrote:Those are the kinds of setups and preferences you configure in your startup working template, yes - that kind of thing is exactly what templates are for... :thumbup:

(You can just select all tracks, then change one to "Region" automation, and they'll all change, so it's a one click thing, anyway...)

I guess so, am just lazy, was hoping I could set it such that I could right-click to create a track and have it already default to Region. I feel a feature request coming on!
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Re: Midi CC learn with control surface

Postby desmond » Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:33 pm

You can also assign a key command to Toggle Track/Region automation...
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