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LUF loudness for spotify and youtube

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Re: LUF loudness for spotify and youtube

Postby blinddrew » Sun May 16, 2021 10:59 am

They're measuring the same thing but over different time periods.
If I recall correctly:
M = momentary, fractions of a second.
S = short-term, a few seconds.
I = integrated, the whole piece.

It's the integrated one that the streaming services are interested in.
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Re: LUF loudness for spotify and youtube

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Sun May 16, 2021 11:02 am

alexhedleymusic wrote:...but im still a bit confused as it says on the loudness metre
m,s,i. (medium, short term, integrated)?

Try reading the article that Kwackman linked above.

There are three different measurements options involved in loudness normalisation, but the only one that matters for streaming services is the Integrated measurement and that has to be calculated across the entire track, from start to end. It will generate bogus numbers if you only analyse a part of your track.

The Medium option works much like a VU meter and is intended to help find an initial level in the right ball park when you start a mix. The Short term option measures over a (roughly) 4 second rolling time window and is used primarily for assessing very short tracks (under 30 seconds) mostly in TV advertising.

so you say to read the lufs to -14 but theres three things to look at so how do you read the lufs when theres three different readings?

Ignore M and S, just worry about I, and only worry about it at the end of your track, not during!

And while the absolute limit for True Peak is -1dBTP, it's often better to keep it closer to -3dBTP as that avoids problems when the material passes through lossy codecs (MP3, AAC etc) which many streaming services are using.
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Re: LUF loudness for spotify and youtube

Postby alexhedleymusic » Sun May 16, 2021 11:19 am

Wonks wrote:You're aiming for an integrated loudness of -14LUFS, which should tell you that you need to use the integrated value. This value needs to be for the whole track, so you can't just look at the integrated value for a short section, you need to run the track from start to finish and look at the result.

ok cool sorry to keep banging on about this but should i just make one master to send to all streaming and aim for these levels and it should be ok still?
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Re: LUF loudness for spotify and youtube

Postby alexhedleymusic » Sun May 16, 2021 11:19 am

blinddrew wrote:They're measuring the same thing but over different time periods.
If I recall correctly:
M = momentary, fractions of a second.
S = short-term, a few seconds.
I = integrated, the whole piece.

It's the integrated one that the streaming services are interested in.
Thanks for this!
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Re: LUF loudness for spotify and youtube

Postby alexhedleymusic » Sun May 16, 2021 11:25 am

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
alexhedleymusic wrote:...but im still a bit confused as it says on the loudness metre
m,s,i. (medium, short term, integrated)?

Try reading the article that Kwackman linked above.

There are three different measurements options involved in loudness normalisation, but the only one that matters for streaming services is the Integrated measurement and that has to be calculated across the entire track, from start to end. It will generate bogus numbers if you only analyse a part of your track.

The Medium option works much like a VU meter and is intended to help find an initial level in the right ball park when you start a mix. The Short term option measures over a (roughly) 4 second rolling time window and is used primarily for assessing very short tracks (under 30 seconds) mostly in TV advertising.

so you say to read the lufs to -14 but theres three things to look at so how do you read the lufs when theres three different readings?

Ignore M and S, just worry about I, and only worry about it at the end of your track, not during!

And while the absolute limit for True Peak is -1dBTP, it's often better to keep it closer to -3dBTP as that avoids problems when the material passes through lossy codecs (MP3, AAC etc) which many streaming services are using.

Thanks this has helped a lot appreciate it! also i just have one other question and thought i might as well ask you as you seem to know what youre saying rather than start a whole new thread. the correlation metre on my track is fine for the majority of the track but when it goes into little instrumental sections it goes slightly over in to the red but only kind of jumps into it quickly and then goes back into the green. would you say this is a major issue. iv'e checked the song in mono and it does sound worse but thats probably to be expected to some extent... still sounds pretty ok to me though. also i can correct this issue on the correlation metre by changing the panning of the guitars but it makes the sound of the track a lot worse to me and just much less wide which is not whats wanted. shouldnt matter if it dips into the red every now and then though should it? as long as its not like sitting there for periods of time
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Re: LUF loudness for spotify and youtube

Postby RichardT » Sun May 16, 2021 11:39 am

alexhedleymusic wrote:
Wonks wrote:You're aiming for an integrated loudness of -14LUFS, which should tell you that you need to use the integrated value. This value needs to be for the whole track, so you can't just look at the integrated value for a short section, you need to run the track from start to finish and look at the result.

ok cool sorry to keep banging on about this but should i just make one master to send to all streaming and aim for these levels and it should be ok still?

I always create one master for all streaming services. I don't think it's worth creating different ones - not only that but it would create a lot of complication when you distribute your music.
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Re: LUF loudness for spotify and youtube

Postby alexhedleymusic » Sun May 16, 2021 11:43 am

RichardT wrote:
alexhedleymusic wrote:
Wonks wrote:You're aiming for an integrated loudness of -14LUFS, which should tell you that you need to use the integrated value. This value needs to be for the whole track, so you can't just look at the integrated value for a short section, you need to run the track from start to finish and look at the result.

ok cool sorry to keep banging on about this but should i just make one master to send to all streaming and aim for these levels and it should be ok still?

I always create one master for all streaming services. I don't think it's worth creating different ones - not only that but it would create a lot of complication when you distribute your music.
yeah this was my thinking. would get very confusing... cheers!
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Re: LUF loudness for spotify and youtube

Postby blinddrew » Sun May 16, 2021 11:51 am

Likewise. There's not that much difference between them, lots of them don't use a simple LUFS measure anyway (they have their own proprietary algorithm and suggest a LUFS number to approximate to it), and generally life's too short!
Concentrate on getting a good mix and check you're in the ball-park at the end of it. :)
There's also the Loudness Penalty website where you can 'check your homework' by uploading a copy and hearing exactly what will happen to it. Worth adding to your favourites whilst you're getting your head round things.
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Re: LUF loudness for spotify and youtube

Postby The Elf » Sun May 16, 2021 12:12 pm

Spotify
Max Integrated: –14 LUFS
Max True Peak: -1dB

Spotify Loud
Max Integrated: –11 LUFS
Max True Peak: -2dB

YouTube
Max Integrated: –14 LUFS
Max True Peak: -1dB

Apple Music
Max Integrated: –16 (±1) LUFS
Max True Peak: -1dB

Apple Podcast
Max Integrated: –16 (±1) LUFS
Max True Peak: -1dB

TIDAL
Max Integrated: –14 LUFS
Max True Peak: -1dB

Amazon Music
Max Integrated: –14 LUFS
Max True Peak: -2dB

Amazon Alexa
Max Integrated: –14 LUFS
Max True Peak: -2dB

AES Streaming
Min Integrated: -20 LUFS
Max Integrated: –16 LUFS
Max True Peak: -1dB
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Re: LUF loudness for spotify and youtube

Postby alexhedleymusic » Sun May 16, 2021 12:20 pm

more confusion setting in as i finish this master... im bringing down the output volume by just dragging the automation down on the master output track but multimetre readings arent getting lower which i dont understand. now if i listen to a song on youtube my master is virtually the same (before mine was a bit louder). the stereo out volume has gone down but the readings on the multimeter are not going down. i have pressed reset on them as well to get a new reading but the true peak is not moving down and neither is the lufs. confused!
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Re: LUF loudness for spotify and youtube

Postby The Elf » Sun May 16, 2021 12:22 pm

Make sure your meter is post-fader.

If you are inserting the meter in the output channel it may default to pre-fader (it certainly would in Cubase).

...and if you're having to turn that master fader down it suggests that for the future you may need to reconsider your recording levels and gain management. But this is a discussion for another time...
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Re: LUF loudness for spotify and youtube

Postby alexhedleymusic » Sun May 16, 2021 12:33 pm

The Elf wrote:Make sure your meter is post-fader.

If you are inserting the meter in the output channel it may default to pre-fader (it certainly would in Cubase).

...and if you're having to turn that master fader down it suggests that for the future you may need to reconsider your recording levels and gain management. But this is a discussion for another time...

post fader metering is switched on(default in logic) so i still cant understand why this is happening. i dont think i have to use the output fader i just dont think i know what to use so this is what i assumed to use. everything was recorded at a good level with no clipping etc. i dont know. i mean if i listen to a song on youtube and my mix is coming through at roughly the same level this should be ok shouldnt it? all getting a bit confused but surely if my mix is coming through the same volume by ear as other mixes on youtube then i should be safe?
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Re: LUF loudness for spotify and youtube

Postby alexhedleymusic » Sun May 16, 2021 12:36 pm

alexhedleymusic wrote:
The Elf wrote:Make sure your meter is post-fader.

If you are inserting the meter in the output channel it may default to pre-fader (it certainly would in Cubase).

...and if you're having to turn that master fader down it suggests that for the future you may need to reconsider your recording levels and gain management. But this is a discussion for another time...

post fader metering is switched on(default in logic) so i still cant understand why this is happening. i dont think i have to use the output fader i just dont think i know what to use so this is what i assumed to use. everything was recorded at a good level with no clipping etc. i dont know. i mean if i listen to a song on youtube and my mix is coming through at roughly the same level this should be ok shouldnt it? all getting a bit confused but surely if my mix is coming through the same volume by ear as other mixes on youtube then i should be safe?

it would assume that what youve suggested is hapening though so il look at how to make the multimetre pot fader in logic
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Re: LUF loudness for spotify and youtube

Postby The Elf » Sun May 16, 2021 1:08 pm

alexhedleymusic wrote:everything was recorded at a good level with no clipping etc.
As I said, that's a discussion for another time, but it isn't simply about not clipping. There are 'good levels' and 'good levels'.

The main thing right now is to sort out that metering so it's telling you the truth.
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Re: LUF loudness for spotify and youtube

Postby RichardT » Sun May 16, 2021 1:16 pm

As an alternative to using the master fader automation to control the master volume you could try a gain plugin pre-fader to bring the volume down. If that affects the meters you then know you have them pre-fader.
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