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the latest Behringer-gate

For fans of synths, pianos or keyboard instruments of any sort.

Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby desmond » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:25 pm

N i g e l wrote:
DGL. wrote:and a new video, though announces nothing really,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbYx0dHv5Lc

Is it a front panel clue ? Nothing immediately jumps into my mind

https://cdm.link/2020/01/behringer-606-teaser/
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby The Elf » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:20 pm

Ah! A TR-606. Well, in that case...
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby ken long » Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:00 am

DGL. wrote:
ken long wrote:
DGL. wrote:
Not really, it's no different to using a reference circuit from a datasheet as it's an open source design so free to everyone in the same way a lot of commercial products are built on Linux (although that's different in some ways due to the GNU licence) and they have quoted where the filter circuit for the BA22? clone circuit came from in various forum posts. Plus they are going cloning said chip anyway now so it's all a bit moot.

They didn't credit the developer as is required. Forum posts don't count don't be daft.

No need to with hardware, do companies credit the designers of reference circuits in datasheets?

Eh? Hardware isn't covered? Now you really are being daft. Look up attribution licenses for commercial use.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby DGL. » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:44 am

ken long wrote:
DGL. wrote:
ken long wrote:
DGL. wrote:
Not really, it's no different to using a reference circuit from a datasheet as it's an open source design so free to everyone in the same way a lot of commercial products are built on Linux (although that's different in some ways due to the GNU licence) and they have quoted where the filter circuit for the BA22? clone circuit came from in various forum posts. Plus they are going cloning said chip anyway now so it's all a bit moot.

They didn't credit the developer as is required. Forum posts don't count don't be daft.

No need to with hardware, do companies credit the designers of reference circuits in datasheets?

Eh? Hardware isn't covered? Now you really are being daft. Look up attribution licenses for commercial use.

Here's Uli's comment on this matter,

Uli Behringer wrote: Since I ‘m taking a quick break from work, allow me to chime in and provide a little education around “open source hardware” since there is a lot of misconception.

Unlike “open source” software, hardware is fundamentally different. You can’t protect or license a hardware design unless it’s an actual design “file” or if the design is patented.

https://www.oshwa.org/faq/

In this case, someone accused us of “stealing” a simple circuitry, which in fact is a clone of an OTA chip called BA662, designed 40 years ago by a company called Rohm. In simple terms, someone reverse engineered the chip with a handful of discreet transistors and made the schematics available on the net. It’s worth noting, that several other synth companies are using this circuitry.

The person who complained wasn’t even the one who designed the schematics but someone who felt compelled to call us out by claiming we “stole” the design and we didn’t credit the person who cloned the chip because of an alleged “open source” license.
There is no such “open source” license available nor required, nor giving credit to anyone. Since the design is actually a clone itself, if ever one should give credit to Rohm, the original designer of the chip.
But then where do you stop? Crediting Benjamin Franklin for the invention of electricity or John Bardeen for creating the first transistor? It quickly becomes absurd.

The law has been designed in a very particular way - to encourage individuals and companies to learn from each other for the progress of society.
If inventors are successful in protecting their invention through a patent, they are able to commercially exploit if for 20+ years. However after this period, the invention then becomes public domain for everyone to freely use it. In this case no patent was involved as it’s a 40 year old design.

In short, you can’t “steal” what is legally available and you don’t need to credit anyone, especially since we cloned a clone;-)

We’re currently designing our own version of the original chip through our semiconductor entity called Coolaudio.com. The chip is called V662A, which - once in production - will be made available to other synth designers.

I understand that some people/competitors don’t like us or me - and that’s perfectly fine. When it comes to “moral” or “ethics” people will have their personal opinion and we respect that too, but these are discussions we can’t and won’t engage in.

We’re always happy to engage in a factual and meaningful way, as we’re grateful for all the support we’re receiving from our customers.

Thanks

Uli
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Folderol » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:40 pm

That's a very interesting and well thought-out reply :thumbup:
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:46 pm

Whatever else people think of Uli and his company, the man is extremely intelligent and knowledgeable, and he certainly knows what's what when it comes to legalities like this.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby DGL. » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:46 pm

and of course having a clone of the BA622 chip will only make sense if sold in volumes, so I think we can pretty much guarantee a JP-8 is on the way :D
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby DGL. » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:54 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:Whatever else people think of Uli and his company, the man is extremely intelligent and knowledgeable, and he certainly knows what's what when it comes to legalities like this.

Intelligence for him was probably a given considering his father was a nuclear physicist who also designed and built his own (patented! https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publica ... C=A1&ND=4#) electronic control system for a pipe organ he had installed at his house (the organ now resides somewhere in France)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woQTCaTndhk
And people think living next to a drummer or guitarist was bad.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Folderol » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:28 pm

He's also a quite respectable keyboard player too. Prolly got that from his dad :lol:
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby DGL. » Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:56 pm

New video, two days to go.
https://youtu.be/qVM7D7WFwyc

and as for Uli being a fine pianist, when he worked as a hotel? pianist he did once get paid to stop playing :lol:
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby The Elf » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:12 pm

That looks like Moog legending and a Moog knob...

A Moog 15 clone? Or the start of a range of modules?
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby DGL. » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:28 pm

The Elf wrote:That looks like Moog legending and a Moog knob...

A Moog 15 clone? Or the start of a range of modules?

probably their Eurorack Moog modules, teased in their modular case video.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby DGL. » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:53 pm

New video, they want you to see if you can guess what it is, but no images of the actual product.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLB-mlodsFo
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby ken long » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:30 am

DGL. wrote:In short, you can’t “steal” what is legally available and you don’t need to credit anyone, especially since we cloned a clone;-)

No need to say more. I would suggest that if a big company began cloning and manufacturing boutique UK mic pre-amps and undercutting the companies that researched and developed them in the first place, the SOS forum would probably go nuts.

There's legalities and then there's ethics.

Anyway...
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Arpangel » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:45 am

DGL. wrote:
Hugh Robjohns wrote:Whatever else people think of Uli and his company, the man is extremely intelligent and knowledgeable, and he certainly knows what's what when it comes to legalities like this.

Intelligence for him was probably a given considering his father was a nuclear physicist who also designed and built his own (patented! https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publica ... C=A1&ND=4#) electronic control system for a pipe organ he had installed at his house (the organ now resides somewhere in France)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woQTCaTndhk
And people think living next to a drummer or guitarist was bad.

Electronic control systems for pipe organs, wasn’t that how SSL started out?
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:04 am

Arpangel wrote:Electronic control systems for pipe organs, wasn’t that how SSL started out?

Yes.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Arpangel » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:26 am

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
Arpangel wrote:Electronic control systems for pipe organs, wasn’t that how SSL started out?

Yes.

Yes.

It was my job to install one in "an organ in Canterbury" :)
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Folderol » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:42 am

This is a problem.
Whenever I see SSL here I immediately wonder what Secure Socket Layer has to do with audio.
:shocked:
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby DGL. » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:57 pm

System 100m modules confirmed

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vpiNPOiPcHU
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby The Elf » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:47 pm

Wow! They have been BUSY!

If I was ever going to get into modular, this might be the stuff that gets me there. It's all going to be about the price.
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