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MIDI Polyphonic Expression vs Polyphonic Aftertouch

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MIDI Polyphonic Expression vs Polyphonic Aftertouch

Postby ramthelinefeed » Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:58 pm

I see that the MIDI Manufacturers Association has announced that MPE (MIDI Polyphonic Expression) is now an official part of the MIDI Standard
https://www.midi.org/articles/midi-poly ... ession-mpe

A part of me finds this rather exasperating - after all these frustrating years of devices not supporting polyphonic aftertouch,
have we now reached the point where a workaround bodge solution is now given official status? Why not just use goddam polyphonic aftertouch?! Less bytes!
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Re: MIDI Polyphonic Expression vs Polyphonic Aftertouch

Postby ramthelinefeed » Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:04 pm

(by the way, if so much as ONE person comes along and says "oh but Polyphonic Aftertouch causes huge amounts of traffic and clogs your MIDI cables" like it's 1986, I scream! :headbang: )
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Re: MIDI Polyphonic Expression vs Polyphonic Aftertouch

Postby Folderol » Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:20 pm

What I find interesting is that the basic MIDI standard has survived for so long. But then it is remarkably easy to understand and implement - this extension maybe not so much.

As an aside, I looked at the coding for OSC recently... I won't bothering :(
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Re: MIDI Polyphonic Expression vs Polyphonic Aftertouch

Postby ramthelinefeed » Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:45 pm

Well that's kinda exasperating too - they basically bollocksed up the versioning years ago, so it's still called "version 1.0". When it isn't. :headbang:
(I mean yes, the core 7-bit protocol stuff is still in there, but that doesn't mean the entire standard is still unchanged at "v1.0")
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Re: MIDI Polyphonic Expression vs Polyphonic Aftertouch

Postby Agharta » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:31 pm

feline1 wrote:I see that the MIDI Manufacturers Association has announced that MPE (MIDI Polyphonic Expression) is now an official part of the MIDI Standard
https://www.midi.org/articles/midi-poly ... ession-mpe" target="phpbbpopup

A part of me finds this rather exasperating - after all these frustrating years of devices not supporting polyphonic aftertouch, have we now reached the point where a workaround bodge solution is now given official status? Why not just use goddam polyphonic aftertouch?! Less bytes!

Aren't they different things in that MPE covers a lot more than just a simple after-touch?
Does MPE not cover basic after-touch fully?
Without more info it's not possible to see what your issue is!
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Re: MIDI Polyphonic Expression vs Polyphonic Aftertouch

Postby pilot-wave » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:00 am

This, on the face of it, looks quite interesting in that this could potentially go considerably further than conventional polyphonic aftertouch allowing for new retrospective, per note, manipulation to polyphonic sequencing for instance.

Even as a synthesist with very rudimentary keyboard skills this could open up new avenues of nuanced musical expression.
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Re: MIDI Polyphonic Expression vs Polyphonic Aftertouch

Postby ramthelinefeed » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:19 am

"Aftertouch" is just a control message from the keyboard,
what the receiving instrument does with it is up to its own architecture.

Polyphonic Aftertouch is implemented just like Velocity (note on and note off) - it's sent as a note number and a value (all on the one channel)
It's simple and logical.

All the other control messages in MIDI were sent globally per channel, so couldn't be articulated "per note", so instead MPE bodges this by sending each note on a different channel.
This means it would go pear shaped in a traditional multi-instrument MIDI set up where each instrument is listening on its own channel.
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Re: MIDI Polyphonic Expression vs Polyphonic Aftertouch

Postby pilot-wave » Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:29 am

Even if it takes all of the 16 channels in a single MIDI lead for, say, 16 note MPE without note clump compromises (or two parallel out sockets for 32 note MPE?), I'd still be interested in exploring this. Then there's the zoning with dedicated master channels which seems to suggest that the usual behaviours could still be available alongside MPE via one MIDI cable.
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Re: MIDI Polyphonic Expression vs Polyphonic Aftertouch

Postby resistorman » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:46 am

mpe allows you to edit a single patch on all channels simultaneously.
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Re: MIDI Polyphonic Expression vs Polyphonic Aftertouch

Postby Agharta » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:56 am

feline1 wrote:"All the other control messages in MIDI were sent globally per channel, so couldn't be articulated "per note", so instead MPE bodges this by sending each note on a different channel.
This means it would go pear shaped in a traditional multi-instrument MIDI set up where each instrument is listening on its own channel.

You match an MPE controller with an appropriate device that knows how to respond to it.
It seems that simple to me and clearly it's not going to work in certain setups but that's hardly a surprise.
The fact that the ancient MIDI standard can be extended in this way seems like purely a good thing to me.
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Re: MIDI Polyphonic Expression vs Polyphonic Aftertouch

Postby ramthelinefeed » Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:04 pm

Yeah but I still don't get why there isn't more support for Polyphonic Aftertouch in the first place!
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Re: MIDI Polyphonic Expression vs Polyphonic Aftertouch

Postby Agharta » Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:31 pm

feline1 wrote:Yeah but I still don't get why there isn't more support for Polyphonic Aftertouch in the first place!

Because few keyboards supported it due to cost; that simple maybe!
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Re: MIDI Polyphonic Expression vs Polyphonic Aftertouch

Postby Folderol » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:46 pm

The issue I have is that it becomes an instrument specific protocol whereas standard MIDI is pretty much generic.
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Re: MIDI Polyphonic Expression vs Polyphonic Aftertouch

Postby Agharta » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:59 pm

Folderol wrote:The issue I have is that it becomes an instrument specific protocol whereas standard MIDI is pretty much generic.

Isn't that the only way they can add features whilst still maintaining general backward compatibility?
The other option would be MIDI 2.0 and be dammed with compatibility.
Either way and someone will complain.
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Re: MIDI Polyphonic Expression vs Polyphonic Aftertouch

Postby BobTheDog » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:55 pm

MPE is not some kind of extension to midi, nothing has changed.

It is also nothing to do with polyphonic aftertouch.

All it is is a standard on top of midi to allow more dimensions of control per note using midi channels.

Midi guitar players have been doing this for years as have continuum players.

MPE was originally "Multidimentional Polyphonic Expression", the midi standard arses have taken three years to change the name to "MIDI Polyphonic Expression” and have changed very little else.

Some might say they have confused the issue.
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Re: MIDI Polyphonic Expression vs Polyphonic Aftertouch

Postby ramthelinefeed » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:10 pm

I know what MPE is, and I'm not so much moaning about MPE,
about continued dogged lack of support for PolyAT.

I mean it's like saying colour televisions never took off cos they were too expensive,
so they've now devised a way to add colour pictures to radios. Or something. :headbang:
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Re: MIDI Polyphonic Expression vs Polyphonic Aftertouch

Postby Terrible.dee » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:33 pm

feline1 wrote:I know what MPE is, and I'm not so much moaning about MPE,
about continued dogged lack of support for PolyAT.

I mean it's like saying colour televisions never took off cos they were too expensive,
so they've now devised a way to add colour pictures to radios. Or something. :headbang:

I am taking great pleasure in boycotting Korg after the release of their "Flagship" (Gimme a break) synth, sans aftertouch

They are trying to retrain us, make us forget it ever existed

Korg is in for a NASTY surprise when sales figures come in,

I warned them

AFTERTOUCH_OR_NO_SALE#
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Re: MIDI Polyphonic Expression vs Polyphonic Aftertouch

Postby Kirke Godfrey » Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:24 am

feline1 wrote:I see that the MIDI Manufacturers Association has announced that MPE (MIDI Polyphonic Expression) is now an official part of the MIDI Standard
https://www.midi.org/articles/midi-poly ... ession-mpe


A part of me finds this rather exasperating - after all these frustrating years of devices not supporting polyphonic aftertouch, have we now reached the point where a workaround bodge solution is now given official status? Why not just use goddam polyphonic aftertouch?! Less bytes!


Totally Agree its been driving me NUTS for ages and as a developer of Kontakt instruments the fact so few manufacturers make Poly Touch keyboards (obviously a cost decision) is really disappointing.
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Re: MIDI Polyphonic Expression vs Polyphonic Aftertouch

Postby Martin Walker » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:05 pm

Hi Kirke Godfrey, and welcome to the SOS Forums! 8-)


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Re: MIDI Polyphonic Expression vs Polyphonic Aftertouch

Postby johnny h » Fri May 03, 2019 10:47 pm

I hear a lot of complaining about lack of poly aftertouch on this forum.

Does anyone here have experience with the Roli keyboards? I've read the SOS review but I don't recall much discussion about it on the boards. It appears to do everything poly aftertouch can do, and a hell of a lot more. I find it seriously impressive, although I wonder how long it would take to master.

It does require MPE, which rules out Ableton Live and a few other DAWs (if you're going to use it properly).
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