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A-D & D-A converters, budget vs high-end

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Re: A-D & D-A converters, budget vs high-end

Postby hobbyist » Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:22 pm

Exalted Wombat wrote:
Zukan wrote:Are they as good as high end converters? Of course not but the margin of difference is narrowing as time goes on.

There will always be a market for doing a simple job in an expensive way. Expensive MUST be better, right? Discrete components MUST be better than a chip.

Trouble is, adequate performance is so easy to achieve in much audio gear these days. And all you can do then is mess it up.

Veblen would agree with you. Sensible people will say good enough is good enough and not pay for nonsense and hype.
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Re: A-D & D-A converters, budget vs high-end

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:21 pm

hobbyist wrote:Sensible people will say good enough is good enough and not pay for nonsense and hype.

But what's the definition of 'good enough' ?

An amateur's idea of 'good enough' could well seem rather 'scrappy' to a professional...

Whereas a fastidious pro's 'good enough' may seem pointlessly unnecessary to an amateur...

:lol:
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Re: A-D & D-A converters, budget vs high-end

Postby CS70 » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:06 pm

Exalted Wombat wrote:Trouble is, adequate performance is so easy to achieve in much audio gear these days. And all you can do then is mess it up.

Amen. :)
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Re: A-D & D-A converters, budget vs high-end

Postby blinddrew » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:48 pm

Yeah, I figure I've got a good few years to go yet before I can start blaming my gear. ;)
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Re: A-D & D-A converters, budget vs high-end

Postby hobbyist » Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:40 am

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
hobbyist wrote:Sensible people will say good enough is good enough and not pay for nonsense and hype.

But what's the definition of 'good enough' ?

An amateur's idea of 'good enough' could well seem rather 'scrappy' to a professional...

Whereas a fastidious pro's 'good enough' may seem pointlessly unnecessary to an amateur...

:lol:

do'H!

good enough depends on your objective as constrained by your budget.

What I object to is golden eared deep pocket snobs telling almost everybody else that their gear is crap and to go buy more expensive stuff.

And I always LMFAOROTFPIMP at the fools who claim that some gold plated litz wire is audibly different AND BETTER when they hook up their speakers with it.

Most of that so called 'better' gear is not better it is just different.
And Veblen takes over when the discussion is purely subjective.

Once you get to the bottom of the mid range there is really really nothing that will sound better. You may get more reliability, more functions, prettier cabinets, and other nice or other audibly meaningless things.
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Re: A-D & D-A converters, budget vs high-end

Postby Jack Ruston » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:29 am

That's not true.

Some things do sound better above a certain point. It's not just a question of simply spending more, but it's not price independent. The question becomes - does it make a difference? And that depends on the rest of the setup and environment, the nature of your role, working method, and how much the negative factors affect you personally. We are really dealing with what isn't there at that point. But I 100% agree that nobody should now have to feel that their equipment is the limiting factor, by online gear snobs of whatever ilk.
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Re: A-D & D-A converters, budget vs high-end

Postby Arpangel » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:25 am

I was invited to go to a Burl evening at Metropolis Studios in London, that was interesting, we were all invited to mix a track through their SSL console and a Burl, which I did. Opinions in the room we're divided, and it was all a bit confusing, but the end result was that I didn't buy one...
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Re: A-D & D-A converters, budget vs high-end

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:17 am

hobbyist wrote:...good enough depends on your objective as constrained by your budget.

D'oh! right back at you! :roll:

That's precisely my point! 'Good enough' is subjective, not objective. But there are objective ways of assessing converters to find which are more accurate and which are more flawed.

Someone with a low budget may decide a Behringer ADA8200 is 'good enough' but it's not hard to demonstrate it's limitations in comparison with, say, a Lavry or Lynx Hilo... No golden ears required...

What I object to is golden eared deep pocket snobs telling almost everybody else that their gear is crap and to go buy more expensive stuff.

Once again... you're pushing on an open door here... If you want to be angry about this kind of stuff go to Gearslutz and join the other ranters. We have a far more measured, realistic and pragmatic approach here. I'd have thought you'd have had enough acclimatisation time to figure that out by now...

Once you get to the bottom of the mid range there is really really nothing that will sound better. You may get more reliability, more functions, prettier cabinets, and other nice or other audibly meaningless things.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and I respect yours... but I don't agree with it, and nor will a lot of people who have the experience and knowledge to know better.

I have to ask, what do you think qualifies you to make a statement like that exactly?

How much real experience have you actually had using high-end equipment in professional studio spaces?

While it's certainly true that a lot of quite modestly priced equipment performs brilliantly and sounds fantastic today -- and is very unlikely to be the weak link in any semi-pro project studio -- there are still audible benefits to be found in much of the equipment where no corners are cut and sound quality is the unfettered design priority. And again, it doesn't need 'golden ears' to hear, just normal hearing...

H
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Re: A-D & D-A converters, budget vs high-end

Postby CS70 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:45 am

Hugh Robjohns wrote:While it's certainly true that a lot of quite modestly priced equipment performs brilliantly and sounds fantastic today -- and is very unlikely to be the weak link in any semi-pro project studio -- there are still audible benefits to be found in much of the equipment where no corners are cut and sound quality is the unfettered design priority. And again, it doesn't need 'golden ears' to hear, just normal hearing...

H

That's quite interesting Hugh - where do you think is the point where differences are not audible (or, better said, we start talking about subjective preferences as opposite to improvements)?

Without budget limits, which audio chain (or chains, perhaps sounding a little different) would be the absolute best at the moment (assuming same performance, mics, preamps etc, all of high quality- just looking at component, design and audible properties of the signal downstream from them) - and would it be possible to better them at some point so that the difference is perceivable? When do we hit the biological limits?

Say I have already a Ferrofish A32, or a Pure2 or a Hilo or a Prism.. where do I go - no cost considerations - to do better? (it's just a theoretical question :-))

You guys at SOS have your hands in much more kit than any average studio owner (pro, semi-pro or bedroom level :)) so guess nobody's better qualified.
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Re: A-D & D-A converters, budget vs high-end

Postby Elephone » Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:31 pm

Thanks. I think what got me thinking about my set up is that I use an Edirol FA-66 (via firewire) and have been since 2006. I seem to remember an SOS review (from 2000 or 2001) saying something about some aspect of it sounding 'digital', but, come to think of it, I think it was the pre-amps not anything to do with the A-D or D-A converters.

I suppose one day, who knows, AI technology will be able to 're-imagine' any recording regardless of original quality, and re-render it to sound pristine. By then, we might have electronic ears that can hear music containing frequencies above 22kHz!
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Re: A-D & D-A converters, budget vs high-end

Postby hobbyist » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:48 pm

Jack Ruston wrote:That's not true.

Some things do sound better above a certain point. It's not just a question of simply spending more, but it's not price independent. The question becomes - does it make a difference? And that depends on the rest of the setup and environment, the nature of your role, working method, and how much the negative factors affect you personally. We are really dealing with what isn't there at that point. But I 100% agree that nobody should now have to feel that their equipment is the limiting factor, by online gear snobs of whatever ilk.

Sound better to who? Sound better to how many more % of people?

With so many people happy with mp3 you have to be a virtual golden eared type to think that better gear makes a sonic difference.
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Re: A-D & D-A converters, budget vs high-end

Postby johnny h » Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:16 pm

hobbyist wrote:
Jack Ruston wrote:That's not true.

Some things do sound better above a certain point. It's not just a question of simply spending more, but it's not price independent. The question becomes - does it make a difference? And that depends on the rest of the setup and environment, the nature of your role, working method, and how much the negative factors affect you personally. We are really dealing with what isn't there at that point. But I 100% agree that nobody should now have to feel that their equipment is the limiting factor, by online gear snobs of whatever ilk.

Sound better to who? Sound better to how many more % of people?

With so many people happy with mp3 you have to be a virtual golden eared type to think that better gear makes a sonic difference.
Its a common fantasy that the best and most expensive gear is "just as good" as budget stuff. Its not a new story. Indeed, from Aesop's fables in the 7th century we are taught of a fox who tries to climb a great vine to reach the grapes at the top.

After his many failed attempts to reach them, the fox declares he never wanted them in the first place because they were sour. Sour grapes.
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Re: A-D & D-A converters, budget vs high-end

Postby forumuser840717 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:32 pm

hobbyist wrote:With so many people happy with mp3 you have to be a virtual golden eared type to think that better gear makes a sonic difference.

No. You just have to be able to learn to listen critically, understand and analyse what you're hearing. With a little effort and perhaps some training most people can do it regardless of the colour of their ears. Whether or not it's important to you is another matter.
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Re: A-D & D-A converters, budget vs high-end

Postby hobbyist » Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:35 am

forumuser840717 wrote:
hobbyist wrote:With so many people happy with mp3 you have to be a virtual golden eared type to think that better gear makes a sonic difference.

No. You just have to be able to learn to listen critically, understand and analyse what you're hearing. With a little effort and perhaps some training most people can do it regardless of the colour of their ears. Whether or not it's important to you is another matter.

I am happy with how I listen.
And millions and millions other folks are happy with mp3s quality.
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Re: A-D & D-A converters, budget vs high-end

Postby Bob Bickerton » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:16 am

hobbyist wrote:
forumuser840717 wrote:
hobbyist wrote:With so many people happy with mp3 you have to be a virtual golden eared type to think that better gear makes a sonic difference.

No. You just have to be able to learn to listen critically, understand and analyse what you're hearing. With a little effort and perhaps some training most people can do it regardless of the colour of their ears. Whether or not it's important to you is another matter.

I am happy with how I listen.
And millions and millions other folks are happy with mp3s quality.

That's entirely your choice, but around here many people aspire to produce recordings of a higher quality for those people who can and do hear a difference.

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