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Orchestral reverb spacing

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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby ManFromGlass » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:05 am

It gets even more complicated for me. I usually need to bounce out up to 8 stems (in Logic) in one pass. That means a reverb on each stem. In this case potentially 3-4 delays sending to each reverb (and associated stem). Each of the 8 reverbs would be identical.

Doable once I get my head around it. For most music I write I've liked the idea of every thing living in the same "space" if I am going for more organic (as opposed to a fantasy anything goes environment). Thanks for this concept!
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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby Martin Walker » Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:19 pm

The Elf wrote:I typically end up with bigger values than those, but I do it by ear without reading the actual values. The 'front' of my orchestra often ends up in the 80/90ms region.

Ah yes, the impoverished student always listening from the cheap seats right on the back row eh Elf? ;)


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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby Gone To Lunch » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:04 pm

I have abandoned using the DP in-house delays and instead use 5 instances of 2CAether reverb, which allows separate early and late reflections, ER & LR, with individual delay controls. Thus 1-4 are ER only with delays of 8, 16, 24, and 32, all feeding 5 which is LR with no delay, all instances of N7 Golden Hall, which I think is a Bricasti clone ? Much much better, the L-R positioning of the instruments is clear and the sound is altogether bigger and brighter. Until I start playing with the EQ tomorrow.
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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby The Elf » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:45 pm

I'm not a fan of using multiple reverbs when realism is the aim, but if it works for you, then great! :thumbup:
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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby Martin Walker » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:12 am

The Elf wrote:I'm not a fan of using multiple reverbs when realism is the aim, but if it works for you, then great! :thumbup:

But surely Gone To Lunch is actually in his description using one reverb (and Aether is my go-to choice as well), but inserting its early reflections at different times from the different delay taps, before sending all of them into the late reflections of that same reverb.

To me that would imply a carefully thought out 'single' reverb with more creative opportunities.

I'm going to try this myself too :thumbup:


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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby The Elf » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:24 am

Depends what processing is going on it the reverb. I long ago tried this with Altiverb and it phased horribly!
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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby Gone To Lunch » Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:59 pm

Martin Walker wrote:But surely Gone To Lunch is actually in his description using one reverb (and Aether is my go-to choice as well), but inserting its early reflections at different times from the different delay taps, before sending all of them into the late reflections of that same reverb.

In the 1-4 ER instances I vary the predelay setting, 8,16,24 & 32, and have no predelay in the LR instance.

However there is a minor downside. With just the all-in-one single reverb approach it is very easy in Aether to scoot through all the various pre-sets. So one needs to do that first to pick the best candidate for the multi-approach, so as to avoid having to change settings x 5.
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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby The Elf » Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:34 pm

Ah... I see what you're meaning. I'd misunderstood.

Worth a try, I suppose. It offers the potential to change ER patterns, but is that an advantage? Dunno! Worth a try, though.
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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby Gone To Lunch » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:47 pm

The Elf wrote:It offers the potential to change ER patterns, but is that an advantage? Dunno! Worth a try, though.

Yes it does, because Aether is so editable, but the only thing I actually vary is the predelay because I am trying to fake different distances in the same space obviously.
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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby Gone To Lunch » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:38 am

Gone To Lunch wrote:
Martin Walker wrote:But surely Gone To Lunch is actually in his description using one reverb (and Aether is my go-to choice as well), but inserting its early reflections at different times from the different delay taps, before sending all of them into the late reflections of that same reverb.

In the 1-4 ER instances I vary the predelay setting, 8,16,24 & 32, and have no predelay in the LR instance.

The angels, like the devils, are indeed in the details.

Delays of 10,20,30 & 40 sound noticeably 'better' as in cleaner/clearer, brighter.
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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby The Elf » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:15 am

I'm struggling to see, assuming the same ER patterns are chosen, how this method differs from using a few simple delays.
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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby Gone To Lunch » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:11 pm

The Elf wrote:I'm struggling to see, assuming the same ER patterns are chosen, how this method differs from using a few simple delays.

I don't know for sure. I am hoping Uncle Hugh will be along shortly.

But as a guess, could it be that since Aether creates the reverberation in realtime, the four differently delayed ER algorithms create four different reverberations which are then combined via the shared LR algorithm, not least because the four ER algorithms are supplied by different sound sources ?

Eg, in my track :

F = front - strings
FM = front midddle - winds
BM = back middle - horns
B = back - percussion

In contrast to the four discrete delays going into the one ER + LR combined.

Thus in the four ER + one LR set up, there is more variation in source, and therefore in output, which I then optimistically perceive as 'better' and 'more realistic' ?
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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby Gone To Lunch » Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:36 am

Martin Walker wrote:
But surely Gone To Lunch is actually in his description using one reverb (and Aether is my go-to choice as well), but inserting its early reflections at different times from the different delay taps, before sending all of them into the late reflections of that same reverb.


I have now gone back to using just one single reverb instance, but changing the amount sent from each instrument. Because I found that changing the frequency profiles available in Aether actually gave better results. In other words, I hadn't yet understood what this function is in Aether, but when I explored it in more detail, it is very powerful, and works much better than doing EQ on the reverb aux output.

The down side is the ultra-tiny rev send controls in DP, too small to be seen with the naked eye, and no useful numerical display.

Another up side is that it is much easier to trawl through all the presets at the beginning of the process.
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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby Moroccomoose » Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:27 pm

I Have a question about how pushing the sound further back affects the panning.

Using my Rompler (Proteus 2000), I have 3 stereo pairs for outputs. So I have these set up with delays prior to sending to the reverb for near middle and far distance.

I am now in the process off arranging the orchestra using the MIDI panning and the front to back outputs to place the instruments in the pit.

As an element is pushed further back from the listening position, (not) using the delay, then sending to reverb, do I also need to pan out further. eg 1st violins near the front go to the longest delay with a paning of say L48 and the 1st violins towards the middle go to the next shorter delay with panning to L63. Or do I give both front and middle instruments the same panning.

I get if it sounds good, its good etc and that this is probably a second order effect to the overall sound, but I model physics in my day job and wondered how might be the most accurate way to model the orchestra panning when the instrument is given depth.

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Re: Orchestral reverb spacing

Postby The Elf » Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:02 pm

Massive generalisation warning...

Source signals further away will exhibit less stereo 'width'. Sources closer to us (imagine your head inside a piano!) will exhibit more stereo 'width'. Their reverb is agnostic.

So to make something seem more distant I would typically use less overt panning and narrow (if not simply mono) source material.
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