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Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

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Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

Postby ConcertinaChap » Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:31 pm

Tearing my hair out here (not advised when it starts to thin) ...

The idea before I actually buy a Rode NT-SF1 is to experiment with the plugin by importing some of the tracks that are out there on the web. So I set Logic up for surround and created a quadrophonic track and imported one of Rode's example polywav files. You can see from this picture that Logic is only showing two tracks in the file rather than 4:

Image

And of course when I play there's only two inputs with data in the plugin:

Image

I've tried this with several files from different sites (and even with the Surroundzone 2 plugin) and clearly I'm missing something stupid, but what? There's surprisingly little info about Logic and ambisonics on the web. Anybody got any ideas?

TIA.

CC

PS incidentally a strange thing happens if I set the output format on the plugin to 5.1. All four inputs on the plugin are shown as receiving data but Y and Z are the same as X and Y only delayed by 2 or 3 seconds.

PPS opening the files in Audacity shows that they are indeed four track polywavs.
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Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

Postby Sam Inglis » Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:02 pm

Logic does my head in at the best of times, but what happens if you actually record onto your quad track -- do you get a four-channel file then?
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Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

Postby ConcertinaChap » Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:08 pm

I haven't tried recording because I don't have an ambi mic yet. I could try sticking four random mics in and seeing if I got four tracks, is that what you're thinking? I'll try that later if one of the Logic wizards don't come up with something.

Cheers,

CC
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Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

Postby Sam Inglis » Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:16 pm

Well, seems to me the obvious possibilities are (a) that Logic somehow isn't recognising the file format, or (b) that what you've created is not actually a surround track. So you could test (b) just by recording on it for a few seconds even with nothing connected to the input, to see whether you then get four waveforms or only two.

Is it possible that Logic doesn't actually support surround tracks, only buses? That was the way Nuendo used to work IIRC.
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Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

Postby Kwackman » Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:45 pm

Non Logic user here, so ideas may be useless!

In the first picture, the "Input" tab is highlighted, showing 4 speakers in Quadraphonic mode.
If you click on the "Output" tab, is it similar?

In the second picture, the right side of the plug-in window the "output" tab shows "Stereo", can that be made a surround output?
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Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

Postby Con Sord » Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:54 pm

I couldn't get the SoundField SurroundZone 2 plugin to work in Logic (with the SPS200) either, I don't think Logic supports the 4 channel track A/B format; it does support 5.1.

The solution was to use Reaper where you can route channels (easily) and bounce to correct surround format, for Logic if required. It was where my conversion to Reaper began.... ;)
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Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

Postby ConcertinaChap » Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:07 pm

Sam Inglis wrote:So you could test (b) just by recording on it for a few seconds even with nothing connected to the input, to see whether you then get four waveforms or only two.

I'll give that a whirl now.

Kwackman wrote:In the second picture, the right side of the plug-in window the "output" tab shows "Stereo", can that be made a surround output?

Tried that. That's when I noticed that strange business I described in the PS. Should be able to output stereo anyway.

Con Sord wrote:The solution was to use Reaper where you can route channels (easily) and bounce to correct surround format, for Logic if required.

That's my backup plane. I've already downloaded Reaper ready.

Thanks gents.

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Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

Postby blinddrew » Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:26 pm

ConcertinaChap wrote:That's my backup plane.

Strewth, I knew you Mac users had an extra bob or two but...
;)
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Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

Postby ConcertinaChap » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:20 pm

:D
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Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

Postby Matt Houghton » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:40 pm

blinddrew wrote:
ConcertinaChap wrote:That's my backup plane.

Strewth, I knew you Mac users had an extra bob or two but...
;)

But... they actually cost less than most of the adapters you need to hook anything up to a modern Mac. :beamup:
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Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

Postby ConcertinaChap » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:14 pm

Well that is interesting. Pressing record without input didn't tell me very much, TBH, so I stuck 4 mics on and pressed record and lo! and behold! all 4 meters on the channel started bouncing around a treat. At the end of recording the region still showed just two tracks (which is why recording without mics didn't help) but look what happened on playback via the plugin:

Image

In fact everything was working exactly as it should. So I'd guess there is a problem importing ambisonic files but recording and using them afterwards is fine. This means I can go ahead and buy an NT-SF1 in some certainty that I can use it in the studio.

However, I'm still left with a concern. The main purpose I have for the thing is onsite recording and for that I was considering buying a Zoom F4 since the current version of the firmware apparently knows all about ambisonics. If importing is failing then that rather cuts away at the basis of that.

So the question is no longer why won't ambisonics work on Logic but why is importing an ambisonic file failing. That's a much more specific problem so thanks all. I'm still open to suggestions on how to fix this one, mind!

Cheers,

CC
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Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

Postby Wonks » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:59 pm

Now you've created two x two lanes that work, can you drag the ambisonic files on to them?
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Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

Postby ConcertinaChap » Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:24 am

I tried that, following a suggestion I read elsewhere. Same as before, sadly. Another lead that has softly and suddenly vanished away is Wave Agent from Sound Devices, which is supposed to split and combine poly wav files in all sorts of useful ways. Unfortunately it refused to install.

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Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

Postby zenguitar » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:57 am

There are a lot of Logic users out there. If you haven't already, it might be worth engaging with Röde support about your problems. You never know, they might already have come across this problem and have a resolution to hand.

Andy :beamup:
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Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

Postby ConcertinaChap » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:54 am

Yes, worth a try, I think. Meanwhile I'm going to buy an NT-SF1 anyway. The reassurance that I can use it in the studio is enough to justify it plus if necessary I can cobble together something for live recording based around our Macbook Air despite my dislike for using computers for this.

Any further developments I'll post. If anyone has further ideas I'd still welcome them.

CC
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Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

Postby Wonks » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:51 am

I can only think that there must be some encoding difference in your external samples that Logic doesn't like or isn't fully compatible with the plug-in.
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Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

Postby ConcertinaChap » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:03 pm

The samples were mostly downloaded from Rode's website so the plugin shouldn't be the issue, and the issue also occurred with the Surroundzone plugin (the equivalent from Soundfield) so on balance I'd say the fickle finger of blame is pointing mostly in Logic's direction. We shall see.

CC
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Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

Postby Wonks » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:15 pm

I have just realised that this is the insane world of the Mac forum, where I have no right or wish to be. :o
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Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

Postby ConcertinaChap » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:22 pm

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Re: Can't get ambisonic to work with Logic

Postby Wonks » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:24 pm

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