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Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby manfromplanet » Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:31 pm

I know this is a revival of a 1year old thread. The reason I am doing so is because I was researching replacing my 3 02rs over the next few months... this has changed my mind. I think that clean well recorded 44.1k 16 bit audio is going to top anything that I might be able to afford to replace it.
A couple of important notes the article missed; the availability of high quality A/D and D/A cards for these mixers (apogee), the fact you can add "cascade" cards which essentially allows you to join all the mixers into one big buss sharing mixer, I have mine set up with these, and finally the internal effects o buss 5-6 are actually pretty good right out of the box, plus there are also some custom cards you can get to bump up the ADAT to 24 bits (expensive), also using external clocks improves the sound and you dont have to overboard here, just a decent clock to sync everything from a central source.
So I guess they stay... at least for me for now
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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby VTypeV4 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:06 pm

I'm glad you replied, manfromplanet and it's good to know there's more than a few examples out there still earning and working. My pair at work and the one at the studio continue to offer consistent and reliable service. As stated elsewhere on the thread, it's interesting to discuss them in a current time frame rather than reading articles and discussions from 2001 :thumbup:

All good points you've raised there, although it sounds like you have yours configured differently than mine. I've used the Unity cards to feed the L/R signal out of console A (Slot 3) into straight to the L/R of console B (Slot 3) via the TDIF connection and the 'extra eight' ins afforded by the Unity card. Auxes 1-4 are fed independently via analogue outs on console A and AES on console B into my pair of Sony SRP-E300s for the on-stage monitors.

I feel this way, I have effectively cascaded them without any of the compromises - I can use the FX units (and TC cards) independently so for example I could put a small plate verb with the drum channels and a little multi-band compression via the Finalizer on console A then the rest of mix on console B keeping both the internal FX and TC independent for vocals, guitar, synthesizers etc plus I don't limit my routing for the TC cards - I don't lose any inputs..

ImageRiggerDual02RJ by VTypeV4, on Flickr

Block diagram of the setup - I've made a few detail changes since I did this but fundamentally it's still the same.

ImageRiggerDual02R Real by VTypeV4, on Flickr

The actual setup.

I completely agree with well recorded 16/44.1 rather than poorly recorded any bit and sample rate too. I use mine at 48K / 20 bit and I've never had any complaints about the often banded about 'graininess' or 'harshness' of these consoles - I think sometimes people hear what they want to hear rather than actually listening.

I well know they're not getting any younger and I know an LS9 32 (with some ADAT cards) would happily do the job of both my 02Rs at work, however, for as long as they continue to be reliable and achieve the result then I'll keep them in service. :bouncy:
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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby manfromplanet » Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:35 am

that does appear to be the other problem with these things... they just keep on going!!!
There are a number of nay-sayers that unload whenever the 02r is mentioned, but I am not using the preamps, it is one of 2 Apogee cards AP8AD https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/apogee-ap8ad-ap8da/
that do the conversion, and then from there through mixdown and mastering everything stays digital. Digits are digits 01+01=10!! Feeding the Apogee converters are API and NEVE clones a few Tube preamps and Green preamps. So, I shouldn't be doing too bad, and if its like everything else, its capabilities go beyond my abilty to use it!!!! One interesting thing that I dug up a while ago was that the 02r uses fixed point as opposed to floating point summing algorithms. I believe this contributes to the way the 02r behaves. it is possible to overdrive the digital on this, unlike floating point, whether it is in the signal path gain staging...blah blah or at the input, so you have to make sure everything plays well together and at the end you dont have glitches. But something tells me that this may also contribute to the way it sounds ... but probably just wishful thinking on my part, only stuff dogs and hummingbirds can hear!!!
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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby Wonks » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:51 am

Pro Tools uses fixed point maths, so there's nothing inherently wrong with it. It just needs to be implemented correctly.
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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:45 am

manfromplanet wrote:One interesting thing that I dug up a while ago was that the 02r uses fixed point as opposed to floating point summing algorithms.

Yes it does. It works with a fixed 32 bit architecture which means the mix buses have a dynamic range of 192dB, and everything has to be contained within that. So the desk's internal gain structuring has to be managed a little more carefully than with a floating point system -- you have to treat it more like an analogue desk in that respect. But it's a perfectly valid way of working and I think it works extremely well (I use a DM1000 a lot).

it is possible to overdrive the digital on this, unlike floating point...

The term, 'overdrive' will be interpreted by many as a musically attractive analogue-like distortion... but that's not what you mean. Instead, the key difference between a fixed point and floating point system is that it is possible to overload (as in run out of quantising levels) the mix busses in a fixed point console. (And it's possible to overload the inputs and outputs on any digital console, of course).

But something tells me that this may also contribute to the way it sounds ... but probably just wishful thinking on my part, only stuff dogs and hummingbirds can hear!!!

Conventional 32-bit floating point desks have to pass 24 bit audio mantissas between signal processing stages, whereas a fixed point desk can maintain longer word-lengths throughout the signal processing chain... so there is less need for interstage rounding/dithering and that may well retain low-level detail that is lost in floating point systems. Whether that is truly audible or not is another discussion.... but the mechanics of the signal processing is inherently slightly different between the two systems.

But there are pros and cons with both systems...

H
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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby Wintersun Project » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:44 am

the o2r is such a fantastic desk, its been panned for years for god knows why, i bought one recently cheaply to bring my synths into my DAW not believing how superb it sounds im using it for a lot more now, if you have really good monitoring this desk shines, its like the NS10's of mixers, pretty flat sound to start with but can make anything shine into something that jumps off the canvas, id much rather have that than have a shiny polished hyped sound to start with, it makes you work at the mix, its an absolute classic and i hope mine works for a long time yet, work purely with the light pipes and use something else for the A/D conversion and the o2r is still right in there with a lot of the current crop imo.
Anyway it works for me, and that TC Unity is worth its weight in gold..
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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby Wintersun Project » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:52 am

VTypeV4 wrote:
I completely agree with well recorded 16/44.1 rather than poorly recorded any bit and sample rate too. I use mine at 48K / 20 bit and I've never had any complaints about the often banded about 'graininess' or 'harshness' of these consoles - I think sometimes people hear what they want to hear rather than actually listening.

I well know they're not getting any younger and I know an LS9 32 (with some ADAT cards) would happily do the job of both my 02Rs at work, however, for as long as they continue to be reliable and achieve the result then I'll keep them in service. :bouncy:

Your right, there's no way they sound grainy and harsh.
If think it helps if youve been used to old skool mixing with analog boards and eq, i tend to go for certain frequencies when i mix, therefore my mixes sound warm and full on the o2r with little effort, the eq is that good its easy to over do it the crystaline top end, and push it into harshness and overdo the gain. Steady on the gain staging and this console is pure heaven, bounce your masters back into the daw and use modern mastering algorhythms in there and the worlds your oyster frankly.
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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby Kwackman » Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:27 am

Wintersun Project wrote: its been panned for years for god knows why

I must be hanging out in the wrong forums, because I don't see much criticism of the old 02R, apart from occasional comments about the quality of the mic pre-amps, which to be honest, I probably couldn't hear anyway!

I was so lucky to have used one of these things shortly after they came out.
£7K for a digital desk with so many facilities, including moving faders was a very cheap digital desk.
In those days this was a big game changer, as the trendies now say!

We used one daily in a post production facility, where it was used 7 days a week and most of those days were more than 8 hours.
We initially looked on it as a new toy because of it's price.
But it quickly became my favourite desk because it was so reliable - we worked it VERY hard -and it was very flexible in terms of routing, sync abilities, auto mix facilities, build in FX, the ability to save desk set-ups, mixes etc via MIDI, etc. etc.
The OS did take a little getting used to, but once you cracked it, it was easy. We had another system costing much, much more than the Yamaha. The "little" Yamaha showed it up so often!
After 9 years of hard service, we changed the gear in our rooms, and the natural choice was another Yamaha, this time an 02R96, and a DM2000. The old 02R was sold on, still working perfectly.

I was working with it one night, recording an auto mix, when the power cut for a few seconds.
The desk rebooted, and when it came "on line" again, it was still syncing against timecode and hadn't lost my mix up to that point. Amazing piece of kit.
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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:42 am

Kwackman wrote:We used one daily in a post production facility, where it was used 7 days a week and most of those days were more than 8 hours. We initially looked on it as a new toy because of it's price. But it quickly became my favourite desk because it was so reliable

I went to a regional ITV broadcast station many years back when I was editing a broadcast audio magazine to write an article about the AMS Neve Libra digital console which was still a fairly new and shiny thing. Everyone was singing the praises of this fabulous desk and it was all going well... and then I spied an original O2R on a trolley hiding under the side desk.

So I asked about it, assuming it was used as an expansion mixer for some big show, only to be told I couldn't mention it at all, or show it in the photos...

It turned out that all the inputs to the Libra had been duplicated to the O2R, and there was a big red button at the side of the desk that flipped the outputs feeding the distribution chains from the Libra to the O2R. Apparently, the Libra was so unreliable (at that time), and it fell off the air so regularly, that they broadcast using the little Yamaha quite frequently! And it never let them down, ever...

:lol:
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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby Kwackman » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:01 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:Apparently, the Libra was so unreliable (at that time), and it fell off the air so regularly, that they broadcast using the little Yamaha quite frequently! And it never let them down, ever...

:lol:

Brilliant! :bouncy:

Kwackman wrote: We had another system costing much, much more than the Yamaha. The "little" Yamaha showed it up so often!
Coincidence - our other system was also an AMS, the Logic with built in AMS AudioFile.
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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby Wintersun Project » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:11 pm

Its such an amazing mixer, i think the whacking its had has come from people getting frustrated with the operating system because its certainly not because of any sonic reasons, I've had some amazing gear over the past 30 years and put this right up there with the very best.
The story about the AMS libra is brilliant, just shows how good o2r's must be if they ended up side carring the Neve with it in case of any dramas, awesome.. actually.
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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby Wintersun Project » Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:06 pm

I hope everyones having a good seasonal break out there,
in the middle of a few days off and a few days in the studio, i have a question for the more knowledgable of you out there using o2r's in the real world.

I have a good condition 02r with TC Unity card on board, a couple of standard yamaha adat cards and TDIF cards, and i also have an UAD apollo rack.

At the moment im using the UAD adat ports to and from the o2r via the 24bit adat ports on the Unity card.
What i wanted to know is peoples opinions on the best way to use all this together and get the best out of the mixer as the centre piece ?
I absolutely love the eq and the unity effects so im sticking with my o2r.

Basically I would like to use the mixer to route everything through it including the Apollo but im worried that there will be a drop in sound quality if i use the monitor outs of the o2r to my focal monitor speakers as opposed to going straight from my UAD monitor outs straight to the focals.

The other thing i wanted to ask was peoples opinions of the mic pre's analog ins on the o2r desk itself or whether its best looking for some kind of external MIC/PRE > TDIF interface for the AD conversion. Im trying to get the best out of my gear basically, and could do with a few pointers from people on here who know best.

thanks in advance
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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby Peli » Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:32 pm

I would like to find out if Digi001 is compatible with 03r/02r mixing console(as a controller)
cause I am thinkin about gettin a triton,mo'phat module,emu sampler and a couple of fourisite voice & masterin modules and a professinal mics..will be used for hiphop, R&b and soul music...will this work out and if anyone has some suggests...will the sound quality be of a professional standard..want other equipment do i need to make this work...help please
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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby OneWorld » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:22 pm

Kwackman wrote:
Wintersun Project wrote: its been panned for years for god knows why

I must be hanging out in the wrong forums, because I don't see much criticism of the old 02R, apart from occasional comments about the quality of the mic pre-amps, which to be honest, I probably couldn't hear anyway!

I was so lucky to have used one of these things shortly after they came out.
£7K for a digital desk with so many facilities, including moving faders was a very cheap digital desk.
In those days this was a big game changer, as the trendies now say!

We used one daily in a post production facility, where it was used 7 days a week and most of those days were more than 8 hours.
We initially looked on it as a new toy because of it's price.
But it quickly became my favourite desk because it was so reliable - we worked it VERY hard -and it was very flexible in terms of routing, sync abilities, auto mix facilities, build in FX, the ability to save desk set-ups, mixes etc via MIDI, etc. etc.
The OS did take a little getting used to, but once you cracked it, it was easy. We had another system costing much, much more than the Yamaha. The "little" Yamaha showed it up so often!
After 9 years of hard service, we changed the gear in our rooms, and the natural choice was another Yamaha, this time an 02R96, and a DM2000. The old 02R was sold on, still working perfectly.

I was working with it one night, recording an auto mix, when the power cut for a few seconds.
The desk rebooted, and when it came "on line" again, it was still syncing against timecode and hadn't lost my mix up to that point. Amazing piece of kit.

I recently passed up the chance of buying an good condition 02r96, came with meter bridge, 1 MY16-ADAT card, 1 MY8 ADAT card, Waves 96 card and 1 MLAN card - all for £700!!!

I just didn't have the room for it. I sold one about 6 months ago but still have fond memories of it
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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby VTypeV4 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:15 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
Kwackman wrote:We used one daily in a post production facility, where it was used 7 days a week and most of those days were more than 8 hours. We initially looked on it as a new toy because of it's price. But it quickly became my favourite desk because it was so reliable

I went to a regional ITV broadcast station many years back when I was editing a broadcast audio magazine to write an article about the AMS Neve Libra digital console which was still a fairly new and shiny thing. Everyone was singing the praises of this fabulous desk and it was all going well... and then I spied an original O2R on a trolley hiding under the side desk.

So I asked about it, assuming it was used as an expansion mixer for some big show, only to be told I couldn't mention it at all, or show it in the photos...

It turned out that all the inputs to the Libra had been duplicated to the O2R, and there was a big red button at the side of the desk that flipped the outputs feeding the distribution chains from the Libra to the O2R. Apparently, the Libra was so unreliable (at that time), and it fell off the air so regularly, that they broadcast using the little Yamaha quite frequently! And it never let them down, ever...

:lol:

One of mine is an ex-ITV out of Birmingham - I have a friend who works there - wonder if it was the same one?
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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby VTypeV4 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:48 pm

Wintersun Project wrote:I hope everyones having a good seasonal break out there,
in the middle of a few days off and a few days in the studio, i have a question for the more knowledgable of you out there using o2r's in the real world.

The other thing i wanted to ask was peoples opinions of the mic pre's analog ins on the o2r desk itself or whether its best looking for some kind of external MIC/PRE > TDIF interface for the AD conversion. Im trying to get the best out of my gear basically, and could do with a few pointers from people on here who know best.

thanks in advance

I have personally never taken issue with the mic preamplifiers in my 02R consoles. They are neutral and don't really offer any colour or character but are perfectly serviceable and I personally can't hear any flaws or shortcomings. I don't feel there's any advantage to running them 'hot' either, I run mine reasonably cool at around -15dBFS.

Regarding alternative mic-pre units, the only one I can think of to TDIF out would be the old Soundcraft one for use with their old range 324/328/328XD consoles.

https://www.soundcraft.com/en/products/ ... -interface

I have used these but only in conjunction with the 328XD console so can't comment on the individual characteristics of the pre-amp itself. They're old now but I have nearly always been happy with the sound of Soundcraft equipment - I even had many a good gig out of the lower range Spirit mixers.
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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby Wintersun Project » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:28 am

Thanks for the reply,
I'm probably asking a bit too much of the old o2r, i note that using it in the 24 bit internal mode hammers the channels by half, im really confused how to use them in 24 bit mode.
The deal is this:

I have 3 TDIF cards, and a UNITY with a TDIF/ADAT port on it.
My hope was to be able to use 32 digital channels at 24 bit via the TDIF and adat.
SILLY ME !

Anyway, im now getting my head round the idea that i can only realistically only use 16 channels at TRUE 24 bit.
Im under the impression i need to use the slots in a specific order too in order achieve this as well.. so it's all becoming a bit heady :roll:

HELP !
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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:06 am

Wintersun Project wrote:I note that using it in the 24 bit internal mode hammers the channels by half...

It's been a long time since I poked around an original O2R, and I'd forgotten about that limitation which was basically down to the prevalence of 16-bit digital tape formats of the day, which meant that to record 24bit word lengths on those machines you had to use bespoke re-formatting arrangements that split off the lowest 8 bits from some channels, and then dump them into other channels (and recombine them on replay, of course).

However, the desk itself supports 24-bit wordlengths internally, and although I can't specifically remember, it may be possible to work with 24-bit I/O using the original AES cards rather than the TDIF and ADAT ones (if you can find any). It may also be the case that the later console firmware updates allowed 24-bits via the later ADAT cards... But I'm probably getting confused with the O2R96 and the mini-interface cards.

H
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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby Wintersun Project » Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:32 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
Wintersun Project wrote:I note that using it in the 24 bit internal mode hammers the channels by half...

It's been a long time since I poked around an original O2R, and I'd forgotten about that limitation which was basically down to the prevalence of 16-bit digital tape formats of the day, which meant that to record 24bit word lengths on those machines you had to use bespoke re-formatting arrangements that split off the lowest 8 bits from some channels, and then dump them into other channels (and recombine them on replay, of course).

However, the desk itself supports 24-bit wordlengths internally, and although I can't specifically remember, it may be possible to work with 24-bit I/O using the original AES cards rather than the TDIF and ADAT ones (if you can find any). It may also be the case that the later console firmware updates allowed 24-bits via the later ADAT cards... But I'm probably getting confused with the O2R96 and the mini-interface cards.

H


Thanks for getting back Hugh,
im stuck in a really confusing scenario here at the moment.
I have analog In going through the analog MIC inputs of the o2r.
and im then bussing the analog capture back out of the o2r via TDIF using the 24 bit recording mode switched on in SCENE page 5/5
Im bussing out the capture out on 2 channels at 24 bit out of my TDIF o2r card in SLOT 1 to a TASCAM IF-TAD TDIF-1 to ADAT convertor, this is then moving the data through from the o2r and onto my Apollo UAD Quad through its Optical inputs back into my DAW.

This actually works apart from the fact it brings in a 2 rogue channels of HISS on ADAT channels 5 and 6, which I have to mute in order to get clean audio.

Further to this, to get completely clean audio, I have to disable 24 bit recording on the o2r where the x2 noisy rogue channels of ADAT 5 & 6 vanish..
But I fear im in the 16bit domain in this arrangement ?

So it looks like the only way I can get 24 bit out of my console is to not bother and have it it in 16 bit..

Im totally bamboozled. ive got to say..

Am I going to be stuck in the 16bit world forever ?
Im at a bit of a loss here at the moment, im praying that someone knows what to do.

Kind Regards

Chris
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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby James Perrett » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:03 pm

I'm wondering if the TDIF to ADAT convertor might be the problem? The manual seems fairly vague about how many bits it passes from the TDIF connector to the ADAT interface although, going the other way, it doesn't appear possible to work at more than 16 bits.
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