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the latest Behringer-gate

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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby johnny h » Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:54 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:Not really. It's just 16 relatively straightforward interlinked synths in a box. :D The original looks very complex when you open the lid, but most of that is because of the nature of discrete electronics, the wiring looms, and the repetition of circuitry. I owned one in the 1980s and maintained it myself. The original uses a lot of bespoke analogue ICs for the oscillators, filters, envelope generators, and so on, which would have to be re-engineered in some way... but Uli's team have shown an ability and willingness to do that already.
But ultimately it will be about getting 90% there for a fraction of the cost. I'm sure its perfectly easy to make it sound identical with simple patches, but I fear the weird, detuned magic of 16 discrete monosynths working together might get lost in the cost cutting process.
Yes, it's a dream... but who knows?
So I'm guessing the Deckard's Dream didn't inspire you to reach for your credit card?
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:07 pm

johnny h wrote:But ultimately it will be about getting 90% there for a fraction of the cost.

:lol: Probably!

I fear the weird, detuned magic of 16 discrete monosynths working together might get lost in the cost cutting process.

Yes. A lot of the magic came from the fact that the design meant none of the oscillators, filters, VCAs, or envelopes ever tracked accurately to each other. Aligning the machine was a laborious and frustrating nightmare, and even with the most patient and precise work everything still varied over time with both temperature and physical vibration. But the delightful upside was that every note played was always slightly different, and that's what made it such an organic instrument

So I'm guessing the Deckard's Dream didn't inspire you to reach for your credit card?

No, I'm afraid not. I did seriously consider the kit form but discounted it in the end, partly for some of the reasons you identified above.

H
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby DGL. » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:01 am

Thought i would give an update on the VC340.

Firstly it's SOLID, it's heavier than you might think and the metal seems to be a good thickness/quality, all knobs are solid and the buttons appear to be standard pcb mount "tact" switches under the plastic panel buttons, the connectors on the back are not mounted to the chassis (except possibly the XLR connector), but have a very tight fit in the case cutouts so there is the minimum of movement if you try to 'wiggle' the jacks.

As for the keyboard, it's got a nice feel and appears have weights under the keys (although they could be plastic blanks without weights underneath them), keyboard noise during playing is minimal and the whole feel/quality is much better than I might have expected, seems slightly better that the keybed in my UF70 which I already thought was pretty good.

Midi implementation is very basic though (although that is to be expected) with only note on and off being trasmitted.


For the £430ish (I paid a bit more buying from the UK but they had it in stock) Thomann have it listed for it's a no brainer, just think a full analogue string machine with vocoder and a decent keybed for £430, compare that with the rrp. of the roland VP03 of £330 and you have tp wonder how Behringer did it for the price.
As for the sound, well that will of course be subjective and as I have never touched an original VP330 I only have youtube videos to go on, but it does sound damn nice. #
All parts (vocoder/strings/human voice) sound as expected so it looks like they did good soundwise.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby nathanscribe » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:37 pm

DGL. wrote:Thought i would give an update on the VC340.

Excellent! I was swayed yesterday by a review video, so hopefully that'll be here tomorrow. I suspect it'll oust the Streichfett, which I find hard to like, though it has its sweet spots. I've also got two old stringers, but they're broken about 80% of the time, so it will be great to have one that works :D
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Rich Hanson » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:57 pm

Having watched a review video of it this morning, I'm sorely tempted to sell the Korg Delta and replace it with the Behringer, the string sound on the latter is exactly the sort I like.

I too didn't really get on with the Streichfett. Good at what it does, but doesn't do it for me.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby The Elf » Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:44 pm

Quite honestly, even the flawed Roland VP-03 would wipe the floor with that Korg.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Rich Hanson » Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:52 pm

The Elf wrote:Quite honestly, even the flawed Roland VP-03 would wipe the floor with that Korg.

Ooo, harsh!!!

(But fair!)
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Dave B » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:33 pm

I'm still holding out hope that Waldorf will ship the STVC thingy so I can try it and see what it's like. A keyboard vocoder / string machine appeals to me and I'm less fussy about the cost and would like to support development rather than re-development.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Zukan » Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:41 am

You do know that if you go down the Behringer route we'd need to re-evaluate our friendship. I just want to be clear in the event Behringer come out with their own Quantum. That would actually tip me over the edge.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Rich Hanson » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:43 am

Rich Hanson wrote:Having watched a review video of it this morning, I'm sorely tempted to sell the Korg Delta and replace it with the Behringer, the string sound on the latter is exactly the sort I like.

I too didn't really get on with the Streichfett. Good at what it does, but doesn't do it for me.

Oh sod it, it's my birthday next week, and as it's a 'milestone' one I've just bought myself an early present. :headbang:

In stock at Gear4Music so I shall have it in my grubby mitts tomorrow.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby The Elf » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:50 pm

I'm waiting on my Thomann order. 40 quid cheaper, but a few weeks away yet.

TBH I would have liked to buy from a local shop, even if that meant a bob or two more, but they can't supply B gear.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Arpangel » Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:34 am

I look forward to any new release from Behringer, I don't own any of their synths, but it's accepted I think that they all hit the spot regarding sound, as was proved when my friend bought his Behringer D to my place.
One thing that's stopped me owning any of these boutique reissues, or Behringer copies is the interfaces are always compromised, and it's the one thing that I always here, it's the only criticism from owners.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby ef37a » Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:40 pm

Arpangel wrote:I look forward to any new release from Behringer, I don't own any of their synths, but it's accepted I think that they all hit the spot regarding sound, as was proved when my friend bought his Behringer D to my place.
One thing that's stopped me owning any of these boutique reissues, or Behringer copies is the interfaces are always compromised, and it's the one thing that I always here, it's the only criticism from owners.

Can you more specific re "interface compromised" please? I see many newbs going for the bog cheap Behringer AIs and also one or two respected peeps saying they are fine but as yet no review that I trust (there can be omly one! SOS.) .

The only technical shortcoming I see from the specificatioons is the very low line output level? Even the slightly better 4 mic amp jobby only delivers about +3dBu max. Not I suppose a problem to the home recordist but might be in certain situations?

I have also seen a few driver issues.

I would like you see to send the two mic AI to my son in France and I want "cheap" because,
1) I have to risk the post.
2) He is a flakey, itinerate musician!

But I want a report I can trust.

I would NEVER buy any of their cloned amp gear and instantly Unfriend anyone who did!

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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby desmond » Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:52 pm

ef37a wrote:Can you more specific re "interface compromised" please?

They are very small, and a bit fiddly.
(Not as fiddly as the Roland Boutiques though...)

If you compare the size of a Minimoog, with the Berry version, you'll see the difference...
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Sam Spoons » Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:35 pm

This is true, but TBF, it's a compromise I can live with and the Model D interface is perfectly functional and was, I believe, scaled down to allow compatibility with 500 series racks.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Rich Hanson » Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:43 pm

The Elf wrote:Quite honestly, even the flawed Roland VP-03 would wipe the floor with that Korg.

It was delivered around lunchtime, and it has spent the afternoon knocking the Korg into a cocked hat. It sounds good, and there's no obvious audible difference to my friend's VP330.

One design flaw though: the headphone output is in mono. Main outputs are fine in stereo.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby DGL. » Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:52 pm

Thought I would post some info from Uli over at gearslutz regarding the filter in the MS-101,
They decided against remaking the IR1309 when they found circuits online that could near perfectly emulate the sound of the IR1309 chip saving them the huge expense of remaking them (they try to only recreate chips when it is not possible to achieve the same sound without them), the OTA's they are using in the filter circuit are selected V13700 from their subsidiary Coolaudio to help them get the closest [possible to t6he sound of the IR1309.

Also to note that Coolaudio have more vintage chips in the design process that are necessary to bring back some more vintage synths!
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Arpangel » Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:55 am

desmond wrote:
ef37a wrote:Can you more specific re "interface compromised" please?

They are very small, and a bit fiddly.
(Not as fiddly as the Roland Boutiques though...)

If you compare the size of a Minimoog, with the Berry version, you'll see the difference...

Yes that's it, this applies to the "D" a lot, my friend who has one agrees that it's not so easy to do certain things, on the Moog Mini you have very fine conttol over detuning and filter sweeps/resonance owing to the large knobs, also, psychologically small and fiddly can sound small and fiddly, there's something about interacting with a nice looking wood cabinet and big knobs, that's where I think they need to address this a bit, even if it does add to the price it would be worth it.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Sam Spoons » Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:06 am

I'm just happy to get all those iconic sounds at a price I can afford.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby nathanscribe » Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:41 am

I got my VC340 a couple of days ago and am very impressed – build is solid, sound is good and feels authentic to my ears (for reference, I've never had a VP-330 but I do have an old RS stringer). So though I can't compare directly to the old VP, I do think Behringer have done a good job. Two things though:

1) The ensemble circuit. I don't really know how close it is to the VP-330, but I do know the VP went through a couple of revisions and I suspect Behringer have had to use other BBDs than the ones in the old machine to get this effect, which, knowing BBDs, will give a different tone. But I'd need to side-by-side to study that. Still sounds good though, no worries here!

2) The keyboard length. The VP had 4 octaves, the VC has 3 and an octave switch (two positions). Three octaves of playing surface might hobble some playing needs, especially if you want very low and very high notes together. BUT. You can play the whole 48 notes over MIDI. Plug in a controller keyboard and you get all 4 octaves at once. Any notes lower than bottom available C just play that C again, and any notes higher than the top available C repeat that top C. The pitch slider still functions to give an octave of downward detune at maximum, so those 4 octaves can be pitched down from there giving a total range of 5 octaves of possible notes, though with only a 4 octave spread at any one time. I'm guessing this is how the original worked as well, with its 4 octave keyboard.

I also thought the output was a little quiet until I started layering the tones, then it needs backing off a bit. But the build is good, the sound is good, and I'm very happy with it.
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