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the latest Behringer-gate

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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby johnny h » Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:40 pm

BillB wrote:Agreed, Johnny, but cost, or more specifically cheapness, is only one element of a sales strategy. The Monotron only costs £30-40. Korg's recent new and old (mini-MS20) analogues are in a similar ball park to Roland's boutiques. I'm just suggesting that cost is probably not a barrier to Roland/Yamaha, nor is technical know-how. It seems to be more a case of attitude and the way that small decisions, to do / not do a market experiment, can influence their approach to the market.
All wild speculation, of course :headbang:
The cost difference between a 3.5mm socket and a 6.35mm one is minuscule. That Roland would cheap out on such a vital component indicates that the company is firmly in the grip of the pettiest of beancounters.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:54 pm

The cost difference might be trivial, but the additional panel and PCB space in such a compact product might not be. And then there's also the user-base expectation and requirements -- sadly as so much gear now uses 3.5mm sockets it could be perceived that the user-base actually expect it want it!

I'm not defending it, and I'd much rather have full-size products with full size connectors, but miniaturisation is deemed to be a desirable 'thing' in many quarters...

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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby johnny h » Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:19 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:The cost difference might be trivial, but the additional panel and PCB space in such a compact product might not be. And then there's also the user-base expectation and requirements -- sadly as so much gear now uses 3.5mm sockets it could be perceived that the user-base actually expect it want it!

I'm not defending it, and I'd much rather have fill-size products with full size connectors, but miniaturisation is deemed to be a desirable 'thing' in many quarters...
The 3.5mm socket is just about forgivable. The hum that comes out of it while using USB power is not!
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:42 pm

johnny h wrote:The 3.5mm socket is just about forgivable. The hum that comes out of it while using USB power is not!

Changing the size of the connector won't change the susceptibility towards ground-loops. That's either a fundamental design issue, or an incompetent user installation!

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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby johnny h » Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:20 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
johnny h wrote:The 3.5mm socket is just about forgivable. The hum that comes out of it while using USB power is not!

Changing the size of the connector won't change the susceptibility towards ground-loops. That's either a fundamental design issue, or an incompetent user installation!
Its a well known fundamental design issue. My point wasn't that the smaller socket caused the hum, it was that the Roland Boutique series suffers from multiple sloppy design choices that indicate extreme cost cutting was the overriding design priority.

I'm not a qualified engineer but surely it isn't that difficult to design an output that doesn't hum while connected to power, even in a small, cheap device. Especially by a long established company like Roland. The slightly bigger Pioneer AS-1 manages to offer true analogue circuitry, separate L/R 1/4" balanced outputs and rock solid build quality.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:46 pm

johnny h wrote:My point wasn't that the smaller socket caused the hum, it was that the Roland Boutique series suffers from multiple sloppy design choices that indicate extreme cost cutting was the overriding design priority.

Ah... I'm glad you explained what your point really was, as I was distracted by the specifics you had mentioned. ;-) Yes, cheapness does bring significant compromises, doesn't it?

...surely it isn't that difficult to design an output that doesn't hum while connected to power, even in a small, cheap device.

No it's not... But it does rely on connecting to equally well-designed equipment in a sensible way. And sadly, a lot of end users don't understand analogue interconnections well enough to do that. So while I don't defend Roland's budget designs, it's not all their fault and intelligent installation will avoid the hum issues you've mentioned.

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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Eddy Deegan » Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:51 pm

I did buy one of the TR-08s, but I sold it after a short while as I found the lack of proper pattern chaining too big a compromise. I was given a TB-03 in exchange for a mixing desk I wasn't using, and I ended up giving it away as it sounded 'OK' but it didn't wow me and in the end I never used it for that reason.

I've steered clear of the rest of the Roland boutique stuff as a result. A friend of mine has had a few of them but never kept any, and I tried them all out and I felt 'meh' about them. I can't put my finger on it and it's very subjective but to me they don't have any personalty or charm.

The TR-08S looks on paper to be a very interesting device but I'm surprisingly (or maybe not, in light of the above) un-tempted. Also, looking at their guts they are extremely dense chips - most of them seem to be the same board running different software, and I have some (relatively minor, but ...) concerns about their longevity.

That said, I've not really been a fan of Roland synthesizers and drum machines since the days of the D50 and earlier. No denying the mighty Jupiters and there was something about the D-series boards that I did like a lot, but I just don't like 'the Roland sound' since then for some reason. Again, that's purely subjective.

If the RD-909 is anything like as good as the Model D clone then I'll be in line. Even if the sounds are a bit cliche now, they can be processed and also, I'm hoping, layered with external drum sounds driven over MIDI.

I'm currently more interested in a Squarp Pyramid than anything else, strangely enough ... but I'm going to have to be patient and wait a month or two to justify the pennies if I decide to go for it ;-)
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby DGL. » Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:17 pm

Another update from 'the other world'.
The Behringer odyssey is now in pre production and should start full mass production soon.
Despite having a full size keyboard, metal case, built in multi-FX and built in sequencer it should be $399 that's cheaper than any of the KORG reissues.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Eddy Deegan » Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:25 pm

Very interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3IgFHE1g74

The resurgence of analogue at reasonable prices is something I'm a huge fan of. Apart from the fact that analogue gear sounds lovely (as a rule) I believe it to be a good thing that there are 'cool' instruments rapidly re-appearing that are not 'one press gives a whole arrangement' affairs as to use these analogue beasties effectively requires putting some actual thought into what you are creating as opposed to simply layering preset complex multi-track patterns.

Not that mashups aren't a fun thing to do, but I genuinely hope that the new generation of analogue instruments encourages more people to create music from scratch as opposed to relying on the preset performances and combinations omnipresent in the advanced contemporary rompler-pluses :-)

I'm encouraged by the increase in eurorack-style noises in various films and TV programme soundtracks over the last few years and hopefully this sort of thing will continue.

Another benefit as I see it is to put a little pressure on the established manufacturers of analogue gear to either drop the premium slightly or innnovate more. Not that I'm complaining really, but these comparisons between (for example) the Prophet 6 /OB 6 and the Deepmind 12 serve to illustrate my point https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K6M9vkh4wU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPSxSvYXxpE

(I'd still by the Prophet 6 or OB 6 but look at what you can get for less than half the price if you're stretched for budget)

As Behringer are obviously able to produce these clones at such low prices I really hope they start producing more original synths of their own design, like Arturia did (albeit Arturia did so at rather higher premiums).
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby The Elf » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:29 am

Got to say that so far all the Berry synths I've used are spot on for the money.

Love my Odyssey, but I have to try the newbie - the built-in effects would be a huge advantage for stage.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Eddy Deegan » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:56 am

The Elf wrote:Got to say that so far all the Berry synths I've used are spot on for the money.

Love my Odyssey, but I have to try the newbie - the built-in effects would be a huge advantage for stage.

Also I'm intrigued by the presence of multiple filter types in the Berry. I've never owned an original Odyssey but if I understood the video correctly, the Berry one has all of the filter versions present in the various original models.

2019 looks like it'll be a good year for us on the synth front!
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby DGL. » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:13 am

Eddy Deegan wrote:
The Elf wrote:Got to say that so far all the Berry synths I've used are spot on for the money.

Love my Odyssey, but I have to try the newbie - the built-in effects would be a huge advantage for stage.

Also I'm intrigued by the presence of multiple filter types in the Berry. I've never owned an original Odyssey but if I understood the video correctly, the Berry one has all of the filter versions present in the various original models.

2019 looks like it'll be a good year for us on the synth front!

Yes it has all filter types, also according to the Amazona.de review it sounds more authentic than the KORG clone.
Isn't it nice having a synth nut running a big MI company?
All we need now is the 2600, which I understand is in the works.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby The Elf » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:06 am

Eddy Deegan wrote:Also I'm intrigued by the presence of multiple filter types in the Berry.
Mine is the full-size Korg re-issue, so I have the filter type switch. That really is a genuinely inspirational feature, so it's great to see it cheekily make its way to the Berry version. The 12dB filter option is particularly good.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Wonks » Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:47 am

DGL. wrote:Yes it has all filter types, also according to the Amazona.de review it sounds more authentic tyan the KORG clone.
If Gordon Reid said the KARP sounds like an Odyssey in his review https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/korg-arp-odyssey then after all his comparative testing, I'd take that to mean that it does sound just like an Odyssey. My German isn't good enough to read the Amazona.de article, so I don't know how it was tested, but I suggest any differences between the sounds of the KARP and the Behringer are probably no more than the differences between two original models would be with component tolerances.

If the Behringer has stuck to the adjustment limits of the original Odyssey, then you may get a sound closer to that of the original Odyssey by putting the controls in the same positions, but the slightly wider adjustment range of the KARP compared to the original doesn't mean that you can't get the same sounds out of it.

But if the Behringer is as good as it appears to be, then my KARP will probably be replaced, as the full-sized keys do make a difference and I won't need to use another keyboard to drive it. If only Korg had built the KARP with full-sized keys to start with (and not just in the later limited edition version)!

But Behringer still spoil things somewhat by using a wall-wart PSU.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Sam Spoons » Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:57 pm

Wonks wrote:But Behringer still spoil things somewhat by using a wall-wart PSU.

It's the price you pay for the price though :blush:
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Wonks » Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:22 pm

It is. It's really (in my opinion) all to do with CE marking and EMC regs. Before they came in, almost everything substantial had a mains-fed internal PSU. Then it became easier to test and certify the PSU and equipment separately, (which didn't guarantee any better EMC results when combined) but made things easier to engineer and guarantee passing the EMC tests, so we generally now end up with wall warts, when it wouldn't cost any more to bring mains into the units.

The regs were a good idea (because we don't want equipment interfering with other kit) but very poorly implemented.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby The Elf » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:31 pm

The Karp (at least mine) sounds as identical to an original white-face Odyssey as another original white-face Odyssey. I know this, because I've had originals and Karp side by side for a couple of months and fooled around with them to see for myself. It's not something that troubles me greatly, though it was of academic interest. :)

BTW I had my Karp FS modified to have that damned external PSU fitted inside the case and a Euro power socket fitted. This will be done to any of my synths that allow for the mod!
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby Dave B » Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:52 pm

NB: All kArp Oddys have the 3 filter types - mini, module and full size.

I have half a mind to pick up another to go with the mini that I have. In that case, I think it will be the kArp module. No slight against the Berry, but then I'm happy with the kArps.

If the 2600 does come out, then I might be tempted...
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby johnny h » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:26 pm

Sam Spoons wrote:
Wonks wrote:But Behringer still spoil things somewhat by using a wall-wart PSU.

It's the price you pay for the price though :blush:
Even the rereleased Minimoog uses an external PSU.

It's annoying but I don't think things will change anytime soon. If you have an internal power supply you need to go through far more stringent safety tests, which are costly and time consuming.
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Re: the latest Behringer-gate

Postby blinddrew » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:48 pm

Sam Spoons wrote:It's the price you pay for the price though :blush:

Can't believe you didn't go with "It's the price you pay for the price you pay." I know it's actually slightly less clear but it's practically poetry! ;)
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