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Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:06 am

Wintersun Project wrote:I note that using it in the 24 bit internal mode hammers the channels by half...

It's been a long time since I poked around an original O2R, and I'd forgotten about that limitation which was basically down to the prevalence of 16-bit digital tape formats of the day, which meant that to record 24bit word lengths on those machines you had to use bespoke re-formatting arrangements that split off the lowest 8 bits from some channels, and then dump them into other channels (and recombine them on replay, of course).

However, the desk itself supports 24-bit wordlengths internally, and although I can't specifically remember, it may be possible to work with 24-bit I/O using the original AES cards rather than the TDIF and ADAT ones (if you can find any). It may also be the case that the later console firmware updates allowed 24-bits via the later ADAT cards... But I'm probably getting confused with the O2R96 and the mini-interface cards.

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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby Wintersun Project » Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:32 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
Wintersun Project wrote:I note that using it in the 24 bit internal mode hammers the channels by half...

It's been a long time since I poked around an original O2R, and I'd forgotten about that limitation which was basically down to the prevalence of 16-bit digital tape formats of the day, which meant that to record 24bit word lengths on those machines you had to use bespoke re-formatting arrangements that split off the lowest 8 bits from some channels, and then dump them into other channels (and recombine them on replay, of course).

However, the desk itself supports 24-bit wordlengths internally, and although I can't specifically remember, it may be possible to work with 24-bit I/O using the original AES cards rather than the TDIF and ADAT ones (if you can find any). It may also be the case that the later console firmware updates allowed 24-bits via the later ADAT cards... But I'm probably getting confused with the O2R96 and the mini-interface cards.

H


Thanks for getting back Hugh,
im stuck in a really confusing scenario here at the moment.
I have analog In going through the analog MIC inputs of the o2r.
and im then bussing the analog capture back out of the o2r via TDIF using the 24 bit recording mode switched on in SCENE page 5/5
Im bussing out the capture out on 2 channels at 24 bit out of my TDIF o2r card in SLOT 1 to a TASCAM IF-TAD TDIF-1 to ADAT convertor, this is then moving the data through from the o2r and onto my Apollo UAD Quad through its Optical inputs back into my DAW.

This actually works apart from the fact it brings in a 2 rogue channels of HISS on ADAT channels 5 and 6, which I have to mute in order to get clean audio.

Further to this, to get completely clean audio, I have to disable 24 bit recording on the o2r where the x2 noisy rogue channels of ADAT 5 & 6 vanish..
But I fear im in the 16bit domain in this arrangement ?

So it looks like the only way I can get 24 bit out of my console is to not bother and have it it in 16 bit..

Im totally bamboozled. ive got to say..

Am I going to be stuck in the 16bit world forever ?
Im at a bit of a loss here at the moment, im praying that someone knows what to do.

Kind Regards

Chris
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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby James Perrett » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:03 pm

I'm wondering if the TDIF to ADAT convertor might be the problem? The manual seems fairly vague about how many bits it passes from the TDIF connector to the ADAT interface although, going the other way, it doesn't appear possible to work at more than 16 bits.
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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby Wintersun Project » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:19 pm

James Perrett wrote:I'm wondering if the TDIF to ADAT convertor might be the problem? The manual seems fairly vague about how many bits it passes from the TDIF connector to the ADAT interface although, going the other way, it doesn't appear possible to work at more than 16 bits.

Indeed your right, ADAT is a real step down in and out of the o2R unless your using the TC Unity which is supposed to provide 24 bit with the ADAT and TDIF connector.
Or unless you halve your channel count and activate the 24bit recording mode, I've no idea how this works apart from Yamaha splitting the signal up and recombining it at the other end, how that works i have no idea whatsoever. It certainly doesn't work for me, i end up with the loose extra BITs on two separate channels coming out as whitenoise

However been doing some investigating with all this tonight..

I believe the convertor will convert like for like BITs, so if 24 bit is coming from the TDIF card then 24 bit will pass through the ADAT optical.

I think ADAT is where the blurred lines come, because looking at the TDIF situation
i seem to be getting 24bit in and out through it without any audio artifacts
and the quality of the signal looks to be bonafide 24bit in steinberg wavelab, this appears to be working by making sure your NOT in 24 bit recording mode, but i might be mistaken, what i do know is the sound quality sounds really good when the 24bit recording mode is off via TDIF.
Im thinking at this stage the splitting the ADAT channel in two to achieve 24 bit over light pipe might just be for ADAT optical, whereas the TDIF appears to be operating in 24bit to and from the o2r at the correct rate regardless of the recording mode setting.

I would love some verification with this though.
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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:13 am

The 'white noise' channels will be the displaced 8-bit chunks from the first four channels, and yes, I'm sure your tdif to adat converter passes the bits across accurately, but in 16-bit channels. Your problem is that, whereas your 02R knows about this legacy 16/24 bit mangling mode, and how to join the channels back together to make 24-bit words, your DAW doesn't. So you're left with four undithered 16-bit channels and a bunch of useless data on the other channels.

So basically I don't think you're going to get usable 24-bit I/O between the O2R and your DAW via the standard TDIF card / adat converter and the O2R's 24-bit mode. I think your best bet is to stick to 16-bit interfacing and work a little more cautiously with slightly less headroom than you could in a 24-bit environment. You'll still have in excess of 90dB dynamic range to play with, though, which is considerably more than all those hundreds of hit records before the late 1990s! And plenty of good recordings have been made on legacy 16-bit formats.
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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby Wintersun Project » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:55 am

Hugh Robjohns wrote:The 'white noise' channels will be the displaced 8-bit chunks from the first four channels, and yes, I'm sure your tdif to adat converter passes the bits across accurately, but in 16-bit channels. Your problem is that, whereas your 02R knows about this legacy 16/24 bit mangling mode, and how to join the channels back together to make 24-bit words, your DAW doesn't. So you're left with four undithered 16-bit channels and a bunch of useless data on the other channels.

So basically I don't think you're going to get usable 24-bit I/O between the O2R and your DAW via the standard TDIF card / adat converter and the O2R's 24-bit mode. I think your best bet is to stick to 16-bit interfacing and work a little more cautiously with slightly less headroom than you could in a 24-bit environment. You'll still have in excess of 90dB dynamic range to play with, though, which is considerably more than all those hundreds of hit records before the late 1990s! And plenty of good recordings have been made on legacy 16-bit formats.

Hi Hugh,
thanks for the reply.
All this makes total sense now.
What i can't get my head around is that im managing to record the digital data back out of the o2r through the TDIF via the TASCAM TDIF to ADAT convertor, as a 24bit capture in my DAW without any noticeable difference.
So basically if im getting this right, the file im capturing is 16 bit but being stored as a 24 bit file, meaning that the extra 8 bits is not included in the capture at all ?
I can live with this, if thats the case as it doesn't seem to affect the quality to my ears.

Also if its going out at 16bit can you tell me if it be a would be a good idea to add dither or leave it off at the output stage ?

All the best
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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby VTypeV4 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:27 pm

As I've understood it, you can use up to 20-bit without compromising channel count / IO on the standard Yamaha CD-8 AT ADAT cards which is how I have mine.

I use a TDIF connection to link the two desks (out via a Yamaha CD8 TDIF and in via the TC Unity) so I can drop the L/R buss of console A straight into the L/R of console B. As I remember, there's a row of dip switches on the Yamaha card to configure the various bit rate / sync options although off hand, I can't remember all the options.

As for using full 24 bit via the I/O on the Unity cards, I'm not so sure as I've never tried it - mine are in slot 3 in extended routing mode so I don't lose the inputs for returns.

Best of luck with the 24-bit route and if you find success, please us know. And just as a side note, the double stack analogue cards convert backwards and forwards at 20 bit too.
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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:30 pm

Wintersun Project wrote:What i can't get my head around is that im managing to record the digital data back out of the o2r through the TDIF via the TASCAM TDIF to ADAT convertor, as a 24bit capture in my DAW without any noticeable difference.

I'm not really surprised you haven't noticed a difference. It's only going to affect signals that are lower than -90dBFS, after all. The DAW will take the valid 16 bit audio words it receives and use those as the top portions of notional 24-bit inputs.

If you have a bit-analyser plug-in you could take a look and see if the bottom eight bits are toggling -- I suspect not. Alternatively (or as well) you could try fading a continuous signal down and have a look on a spectrum analyser plug-in. A clean 1kHz sine tone would work well. It should just fade down into a smooth noise floor at around -140dBFS, but if the bottom eight bits are absent you'll see it generating lots of distortion tones as you approach -90dBFS.

Although you can, I don't recommend listening to this process as you'd need to crank the replay gain enormously to hear the descent through the -90dBFS level, and that is inherently very dangerous to both your monitors and ears if you then replay something at more normal level, so take extreme care if you are tempted to do this! You can see the results on a spectrum analyser plugin more easily and safely.

So basically if im getting this right, the file im capturing is 16 bit but being stored as a 24 bit file, meaning that the extra 8 bits is not included in the capture at all ?

Yes, I think that's what is happening.

I can live with this, if thats the case as it doesn't seem to affect the quality to my ears.

In practice it won't affect audio quality unless you record music with enormous dynamic ranges in extremely quiet locations with masses of headroom! None of which apply to your average bedroom studio recording.

Also if its going out at 16bit can you tell me if it be a would be a good idea to add dither or leave it off at the output stage ?

It would be a good idea to configure the desk interfaces for normal operation (as opposed to 24 bit mode) and set the output dithering for those interfaces to 16 bits. That will ensure that any low level signals (eg decaying reverb tails) remain clean and undistorted, and fade into a smooth noise floor gracefully.

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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:49 pm

VTypeV4 wrote:As I've understood it, you can use up to 20-bit without compromising channel count / IO on the standard Yamaha CD-8 AT ADAT cards which is how I have mine.

The memory haze is starting to lift! Checking the manual here:https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/9/321379/02Rv2E.pdf It states on page 193 that the 02R's digital I/O operates natively with a 20-bit wordlengths. I also see that the TDIF card has dip-switches on it to set the wordlength (manual here: https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/1/320611/CD8-CSKITE.pdf ).

So it may well be that you can run with a 20-bit I/O to the DAW and back, which would be great. Few 24-bit converters manage more than 20 bits of useful audio anyway! :-)

Some experimentation with a DAW plugin that displays bit activity will help to track down what's going on enormously! I use the tools that come with RME interfaces, but I'm sure someone will be able to recommend a suitable generic plugin analyser.

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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby Wintersun Project » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:41 pm

This has all helped enourmously, thanks Hugh :)
Im going to start getting into the nitty gritty and see what transpires..
Great technical info youve imparted, even better if its 20 bit as opposed to 16 !
Great stuff.

Im going to have a bash with this, and see if it reveals anything
https://www.stillwellaudio.com/plugins/bitter/
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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby Wintersun Project » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:53 pm

Bitter is reading a FULL 24 bit on recapture, no loss of bits, and the audio sounds pristine
im going to have to use something much more surgical to make sure though.
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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby Wintersun Project » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:00 am

oops
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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby Wintersun Project » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:43 pm

MusicScope confirms im getting the dynamic range of 24 bit and there are no unused bits at 24 bit, no blue bits showing at all on the analysis.
so basically im getting 24 bit data out of those TDIF-II cards.
Back through lightpipe and back into my UAD Apollo, super clean no noise.
However, using the yamaha lightpipes is a totally different kettle of fish
they will not do 24 bit without the split and reassemble trick yamaha use.
Ive also bounced a 20bit audio file through as 24 bit and it shows 4 blue unused bits on the play through, so i dont know what the crack is here, all i can say is, if you used the TDIF 2 cards and flick the 24 bit dip switches on im getting fully usable 24 bit I/o with a full channel count, none of this half the channels garbage ! Certainly no noise, i cant find any noise on the capture at all, even fully cranked on the focals !

One things for sure, it sounds great so im going to just get on with using it from here without worrying one way or the other, like Hugh pretty much said, its more than good enough to do the necessary whatever the weather :)
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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:58 pm

Wintersun Project wrote:...all i can say is, if you used the TDIF 2 cards and flick the 24 bit dip switches on im getting fully usable 24 bit I/o with a full channel count...

Well, that's a good result, and it makes sense, and 20 bits via ADAT is perfectly workable and really won't be inferior to most 24-bit converters' performance anyway!

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Re: Yamaha 02R digital mixing console.

Postby VTypeV4 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:30 am

Wintersun Project wrote:One things for sure, it sounds great so im going to just get on with using it from here without worrying one way or the other, like Hugh pretty much said, its more than good enough to do the necessary whatever the weather :)

This, exactly this. I couldn't agree more. It's great to see there's at least one other person happy with the results from their 02R. :thumbup:
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