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Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby Guest » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:17 am

ef37a wrote:Possibly but those speakers are rated at 114dB SPL max presumably at the "peak" power input of 600 watts? The mixer is rated at only 150W per channel but even worse, that is into 4 Ohms and the speakers are 8 Ohms and so you can expect a maximum power delivery of 80W, 100W at best.
I did not realize that mixers had anything to do with the out put amplification
This could now cause more problems no when selecting my mixer

But anyway so as not to confuse. Hear is a diagram of the plan again
https://ebayphotos.webs.com/IMG_20190303_234053.jpg

Ps. I should of written on the diagram that the speakers are somewhere around 500/600 watt
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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby ef37a » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:39 am

music master wrote:
ef37a wrote:Possibly but those speakers are rated at 114dB SPL max presumably at the "peak" power input of 600 watts? The mixer is rated at only 150W per channel but even worse, that is into 4 Ohms and the speakers are 8 Ohms and so you can expect a maximum power delivery of 80W, 100W at best.
I did not realize that mixers had anything to do with the out put amplification
This could now cause more problems no when selecting my mixer

But anyway so as not to confuse. Hear is a diagram of the plan again
https://ebayphotos.webs.com/IMG_20190303_234053.jpg

Ps. I should of written on the diagram that the speakers are somewhere around 500/600 watt

I am not sure I understand your confusion? The mixer is a self contained "mixer/amplifier" aka "powered mixer" and your diagram shows that you get that?
My point was that the maximum SPL given for those speakers might be fine in a rehearsal room but not in a large, absorbent, noisy wedding venue. The other factor is that the speakers will not, it seems to me, be driven to that max SPL because the amplifiers in the mixer are not powerful enough.

Most PA rigs these days AFAICT use mixers with just a line out signal and active speakers with power amplifiers built in. Such speakers are moreover capable of much higher sound levels than 114dB at a mtr.

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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby Mike Stranks » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:55 am

music master: A bit more on mixer-amps and speakers may help....

You are contemplating buying a set of kit that Thomann has put together to make into a package.

The mixer-amp is capable of delivering a certain output and the speakers are capable of handling a certain output.

The speaker capability is, in your context, irrelevant. It's merely stating how much power that they can handle before they fail. (And I'll return to that in a moment)

What you're interested in - and what people are expressing concerns about - is how much power the mixer-amp is actually generating. Their concern is whether/not the system will be loud enough for the contexts in which you wish to use it. You'll note that the power output stated for the mixer-amp is much lower than that for the speakers. It's the mixer-amp you have to worry about.

The other problem that people are seeking to highlight is that in this context the term 'watts' can be (and is) stated in several different ways. We aren't getting much clue as to what the term relates to here.

A general benchmark (though not without issues) term is 'RMS watts' - let's use the figure of 100.

Then there's 'music-power-watts' which is usually double the RMS, so 200.

Then there's 'peak-music-power-watts'' which is usually four times the RMS, so 400.

We don't know what is actually being quoted so it's hard to establish 'loudness'.

And if that weren't confusing enough there's the efficiency of the speakers themselves that has to be factored in. An inefficient speaker needs far more input power to produce a given loudness than does an efficient one. It doesn't mean that the speaker is 'better' or 'worse' - simply that it's been designed that way. (As an aside. I've used a range of JBL speakers over the years. Lovely sound, but very inefficient so need lots of amplifier power to make them sound loud enough.)

The Phonic mixer-amp looks good in terms of the facilities it offers - especially the onboard recorder. One solution for you might be to build your own system using slightly 'better' speakers and a bigger/more-powerful version if the Phonic mixer-amp - Thomann do sell them.
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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby ef37a » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:33 am

Mike, I will grant you qualified *&^%$! rms watts but it still grates! (wish I could come up with a snappier alternative to "continuous sine wave power"!)

However I still think the SPL capability of the speakers needs consideration? Quoted as 114dB max and, in the absence of any other information, can we assume that is "peak" (whatever tf that is!) output for the "peak" input of 600 watts?
If so that means the continuous "working" SPL is likely only a bit over 100dB and well below the capability needed in most "party" situations.

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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby Wonks » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:33 am

Mike Stranks wrote:We don't know what is actually being quoted so it's hard to establish 'loudness'.

For the Phonic Powerpod I'd assume that the 150W pc is RMS or close to it. Anything less would be pretty useless for PA. Phonic quote 100W pc into 8 ohms.

The speakers are 8 ohm rated and have a peak output of 114dB and a 600W peak rating, which normally equates to 150W RMS. Working back, that equates to a basic efficiency of 92dB @ 1W @ 1m. Sounds about right for a cheap PA speaker (£56 each when bought separately)

With 100W input (20dB gain), the speaker will produce a peak SPL of 112dB.

Now that is going to be fine for a quiet acoustic rehearsal session, but isn't enough for any band with drums. A long time ago I did once try to use a Spirit Powerpad (30W pc) with two passive JBL EON 10" speakers for our rehearsal PA (trying not to take the 15" Eons and the Spirit Powerstation 600 for ease of packing and carrying) but it simply wasn't loud enough. That (by calculation) would have produced around 110dB per speaker. 2dB on top of that simply won't cut it once you get drums and electric instruments involved.

Remember that that's at full volume, by which time most PAs don't sound very nice so you'd want to run with some headroom, which makes it even quieter.

So if there's just one or two of you singing with one or two electro-acoustics, then maybe it's OK for a rehearsal, but I doubt it would be any use for gigs unless the audience was very quiet. Trying to get heard in a noisy pub/bar - no way.

Also you are going to need some monitoring when playing live, so you'll probably need at least one monitor, and to save carting a separate amp around, you're best going active. So if you go for at least a basic 12" powered monitor like this T-bone one https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_ma120_mk_ii.htm, you'll end up with a monitor that at 120dB peak, is louder than your FOH PA!

The problem with starter kit is that you almost immediately grow out of it. You'll notice its deficiencies within a few weeks, then you'll want something better. And then you find that you've lost at least half the value (if you can sell it).
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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby Guest » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:35 am

When I went to my local music shop dawsons, I told them the size of venue I had in mind and they said a 500 watt speaker system would do the job
They recommended me the following

Yamaha stagepas 400bt speakers or the 600bt

Yamaha mg06x 2 channel mixer
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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby Guest » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:37 am

Hear is the cheapest brand new mixer I could find on eBay
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4-Channels-b ... ect=mobile

The plastic casing makes it look like a 5 year olds toy
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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby Wonks » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:44 am

music master wrote:When I went to my local music shop dawsons, I told them the size of venue I had in mind and they said a 500 watt speaker system would do the job
They recommended me the following

Yamaha stagepas 400bt speakers or the 600bt

Yamaha mg06x 2 channel mixer

Just reinforces my thoughts regarding Dawsons; trying to sell you an extra mixer when the stagepas system comes with one built-in! :headbang:
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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby Wonks » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:49 am

music master wrote:Hear is the cheapest brand new mixer I could find on eBay
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4-Channels-b ... ect=mobile

The plastic casing makes it look like a 5 year olds toy

I agree, and it's probably as useful. However, colour coded knobs and sections do make it easy to find the controls you want more quickly, though this is more beneficial on larger mixers with a lot more controls on.
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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby Mike Stranks » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:22 pm

StagePAS are good systems and certainly a step up from what you've considered before. Certainly enough for venues where the audience listens and doesn't talk at the same time.

But what would you then do about recording?
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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby Guest » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:57 pm

Wonks wrote:
music master wrote:When I went to my local music shop dawsons, I told them the size of venue I had in mind and they said a 500 watt speaker system would do the job
They recommended me the following

Yamaha stagepas 400bt speakers or the 600bt

Yamaha mg06x 2 channel mixer

Just reinforces my thoughts regarding Dawsons; trying to sell you an extra mixer when the stagepas system comes with one built-in! :headbang:
Your not telling me that those speakers have a xlr input and a 3.5mm input and will run together are you

Could do with someone selling off a used karaoke set up really
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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby Sam Spoons » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:17 pm

The StagePAS 600 mixer is far better equipped than that little Yamaha mixer. You can record from the 'monitor' outputs to your camcorder, a stereo recorder or PC (either the 3.5mm input if quality is not so important or using that cheap AI mentioned earlier for better results). The only downside is if you need a monitor speaker then those outputs are used up (though you could do it with a splitter lead, not ideal but it would work).

Image

The StagePAS600 maxes out at 129dB SPL so not far off the output of a pair of decent powered speakers.

You haven't confirmed a budget for this project yet, only implied from the gear suggestions, nor have you told us what the recordings are to be used for?
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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby Wonks » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:42 pm

By the time you've bought a Stagepas 600 system, with stands, you won't be far off £800 and you still won't have solved the recording issue.

A pair of Alto TS312 active speakers and stands can be obtained for £573, leaving you a fair amount of money to buy a mixer that can do USB recording and also have some built-in effects (you will want reverb on your vocals). It will be slightly louder than the Stagepas 600 (which does come with some reverb) and be capable of being loud enough for any likely venue.

For a bit less at £515, you could get the TS310s plus stands, which are as loud as the stagepas 600 sysytem, https://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Li ... -Pair/2FRU.

You will need some form of basic monitoring on stage. This won't need to be that loud, as you are playing to backing tracks so don't need to overcome drums and backline. You can pay what you want, but something like this should be sufficient. https://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Li ... nitor/2IP4
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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby Sam Spoons » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:52 pm

Good call Wonks, the StagePAS is super simple though and I'm sure that the OP won't mind me saying that he is a bit of a newb WRT this stuff.
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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby Wonks » Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:54 pm

Indeed, though it's not so hot on the monitoring side if you want a different mix to the FOH mix. Also if you use a monitor output for recording, again, you might want a different mix to that out front. Live you'd probably push the vocals up high, which might not sound quite so good when recorded and played back at normal levels.

Adjustable monitoring might not be an issue now, but in two years time it may be, which leaves you at a bit of a dead-end with the Stagepas unless you add a separate mixer and feed that into the Stagepas' mixer, which leaves you with a system that is now functionally similar to what you could have started with but for less money, (albeit slightly more complex than the Stagepas on its own). Why couldn't they have provided even just one proper aux send on the Stagepas? It would make it a lot easier to recommend.
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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby Sam Spoons » Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:24 pm

Yup, all true :thumbup:
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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby Dan LB » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:23 pm

Just to add: the speaker cables that come with the Stagepas are too short for a lot of applications (they’re not exactly amazing quality either) so if you were to go that route I’d recommend budgeting for those too.
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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby Guest » Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:08 am

I was told for the size I am doing I don't need a monitor
You don't see them on karaoke or open Mic nights do you
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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby zenguitar » Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:42 am

music master wrote:I was told for the size I am doing I don't need a monitor
You don't see them on karaoke or open Mic nights do you

You do see them where I live, and I can assure you that the guy who runs the karaoke nights is a rank amateur (not to be let within 100m of a microphone), and the guy who runs the open mic nights is a decent singer/guitarist and a thoroughly nice guy but woefully amateur when it comes to his PA.

The world is full of people who are very good at telling you things. The hard part is learning enough to decide which of them you listen to, and which of them you ignore (and remember to ignore further in the future).

The secret is to accept that you don't know enough yet and that that is perfectly normal. It's how we all start. The smart thing to do do is to reserve judgement, don't take the first answers you get for granted; and, instead, teach yourself to discriminate between those who have education and experience and those who lack both but are opinionated, vocal, and love to parrot ignorant opinions expressed on 3rd rate but (sadly) heavily promoted websites.

Handy Hint #1 When you joined here you found a site with a high ratio of members with experience and knowledge.

Andy :beamup:
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Re: Recoding quality sound mic-mixer-pc

Postby Mike Stranks » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:51 am

zenguitar wrote:
music master wrote:I was told for the size I am doing I don't need a monitor
You don't see them on karaoke or open Mic nights do you

You do see them where I live, and I can assure you that the guy who runs the karaoke nights is a rank amateur (not to be let within 100m of a microphone), and the guy who runs the open mic nights is a decent singer/guitarist and a thoroughly nice guy but woefully amateur when it comes to his PA.

The world is full of people who are very good at telling you things. The hard part is learning enough to decide which of them you listen to, and which of them you ignore (and remember to ignore further in the future).

The secret is to accept that you don't know enough yet and that that is perfectly normal. It's how we all start. The smart thing to do do is to reserve judgement, don't take the first answers you get for granted; and, instead, teach yourself to discriminate between those who have education and experience and those who lack both but are opinionated, vocal, and love to parrot ignorant opinions expressed on 3rd rate but (sadly) heavily promoted websites.

Handy Hint #1 When you joined here you found a site with a high ratio of members with experience and knowledge.

Andy :beamup:

Can't let that pass without comment, Andy.

This is the second 'newbie' poster we've had recently who know very little indeed and, in the words of D Rumsfield, "Don't know what they don't know."

How are such people to discern what is the 'correct' advice and how to build their knowledge when the information supplied within one forum is not of one view?

[Before anyone else says it, I know that with this poster I caused him unnecessary angst by starting a side-debate about SM58s.]

Added to the divergence of view we also have very well-meaning people giving detailed (and correct) technical information that uses terms that are commonplace to us, but bewilderingly meaningless to those asking the questions.

Yes; people may need to build knowledge and learning (although some will be happy with the simplest of 'yes/no' and go on their way) but I didn't get to understand the basic concepts of arithmetic by someone trying to explain the 'A' level syllabus to me. :)

Keep it simple, folks!

I am now in direct communication with both of these recent very newbie posters. I'm sure they won't mind me saying that their knowledge is almost non-existent. They simply want to know, 'How do I....?' or 'Can I...? Both have been confused by the conflicting and detailed advice they've received here. I'm seeking to help them with baby-steps and one issue at a time advice and recommendations.

I'm not the 'fount of all knowledge'. I don't consider myself 'better' than anyone else. But I do understand that when you can't see the wood for the trees, having the details of all the different trees pointed out and the nature of the diseases that can afflict them itemised doesn't really help. :)

To repeat: I know that folks are trying to be helpful and point out pitfalls. But for the very new a lot of the time there is simply Too Much Information. Back to my PMs...
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