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Windows 7's impending death

For anything relating to music-making on Windows computers, with lots of FAQs. Moderated by Martin Walker.

Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby Watchmaker » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:47 pm

"support" isn't the same as "functional" it simply means MS will task the existing "developers" with writing more code for the NSA. Eventually the attack surface will shrink to a negligible background noise because hardly anyone uses it. That's Apple's primary defense mechanism btw. Only nerds with nothing to lose but arty stuff use 'em. Business is still done on PCs, unless you're an executive and an iPad is all you can be trusted with.

I have zero plans for updating my WIN 7 computer. OTH, I have finally accepted that I have to be a full time sysadmin for my WIN10 machine which involves removing bloatware, disabling useless services, maintaining firewall settings through group policy, and a fair number of registry hacks (take THAT! Cortana!). Thank god I have the skills. I feel for the poor dumb bastards that have to accept the crap microsoft dishes out.

OS's really do not need much more in the way of improvements. It's really only the insatiable craving for moarnewershinyshiny that drives all of this. All I want is reliability, security, high performance and low cost. Is that too much to ask?
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby scw » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:11 pm

Hmmm I've dreaded this for some time.
I changed my other PCs over to W10 at the end of last year. I actually like the interface and everything went without a hitch.

I've put off changing my DAW PC to W10 for fear of running into problems with the DAW and the other installed software like NI Komplete etc. I've got so much stuff on it that I couldn't face a disaster.

To the guys that migrated over - did you have any issues? I plan to upgrade rather than clean install. Obviously the hardware driver issues make me more reticent - my RME fireface should be OK but the midiman 2x2 looks like it's not supported.

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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby James Perrett » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:18 pm

Watchmaker wrote:OS's really do not need much more in the way of improvements.

Not sure about that...

For audio we really need an efficient real time operating system that can handle multiple incoming and outgoing data streams in a timely and predictable way. While MS and Apple have tried to achieve this with their general purpose desktop operating systems I think these things only really work because of the sheer computing power that we have available these days. We really shouldn't have to run tools like the DPC latency checker to get our programs to work these days.
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby James Perrett » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:23 pm

scw wrote:I plan to upgrade rather than clean install.

Most of the reports of problems have been from people who have upgraded. Clean installs seem more reliable. I've used an ancient MOTU MIDI interface on Windows 10 with no problems but haven't tried my M-Audio 2x2 midi interface.
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby OneWorld » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:41 pm

James Perrett wrote:
scw wrote:I plan to upgrade rather than clean install.

Most of the reports of problems have been from people who have upgraded. Clean installs seem more reliable. I've used an ancient MOTU MIDI interface on Windows 10 with no problems but haven't tried my M-Audio 2x2 midi interface.

I used an M-Audio 4x4 with Win10 no problems, I traded up to the 8x8 model and it was all over the place, ironically I had an old Steinberg Midex 8x8 and it's spot on!
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby scw » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:17 pm

James Perrett wrote:
scw wrote:I plan to upgrade rather than clean install.

Most of the reports of problems have been from people who have upgraded. Clean installs seem more reliable..

That's what I feared James. The thought of reinstalling everything is daunting.
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby CS70 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:19 pm

James Perrett wrote:
Watchmaker wrote:OS's really do not need much more in the way of improvements.

Not sure about that...

For audio we really need an efficient real time operating system that can handle multiple incoming and outgoing data streams in a timely and predictable way. While MS and Apple have tried to achieve this with their general purpose desktop operating systems I think these things only really work because of the sheer computing power that we have available these days. We really shouldn't have to run tools like the DPC latency checker to get our programs to work these days.

True, the challenge is that a proper real time OS requires not only a quite different architecture, but also acceptance by the user that the specific result that he gets depends on the moment in time when he gets it. While this is the norm with analog systems, we are trained to think that digital system produce always the same result for the same computation.

Given all the fuss for small stuff like automatic updates and polite notifications of end of life, I suspect this second part is the major hindrance to anybody who would want to sell a RTOS.. :D
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby scw » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:20 pm

OneWorld wrote:
James Perrett wrote:
scw wrote:I plan to upgrade rather than clean install.

Most of the reports of problems have been from people who have upgraded. Clean installs seem more reliable. I've used an ancient MOTU MIDI interface on Windows 10 with no problems but haven't tried my M-Audio 2x2 midi interface.

ironically I had an old Steinberg Midex 8x8 and it's spot on!
That's interesting . I think I have an old Midex lying around. I could never get it to work well with W7!
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby CS70 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:20 pm

scw wrote:
James Perrett wrote:
scw wrote:I plan to upgrade rather than clean install.

Most of the reports of problems have been from people who have upgraded. Clean installs seem more reliable..

That's what I feared James. The thought of reinstalling everything is daunting.

I would give it a try. I did upgrade my old laptop back in the time and everything went pretty smoothly - it got used until recently for location recording.
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby scw » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:23 pm

Thanks for that, I think I'll give the upgrade a go and if it fails I'll rethink the whole clean install vs offline Win7 reinstall from image !!
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby ef37a » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:22 am

James Perrett wrote:
Watchmaker wrote:OS's really do not need much more in the way of improvements.

Not sure about that...

For audio we really need an efficient real time operating system that can handle multiple incoming and outgoing data streams in a timely and predictable way. While MS and Apple have tried to achieve this with their general purpose desktop operating systems I think these things only really work because of the sheer computing power that we have available these days. We really shouldn't have to run tools like the DPC latency checker to get our programs to work these days.

"Once apon a time, long ago the Great Fathers of audio/music electronics came together for a pow-wow and LO! MIDI was born!
I have no idea how possible this is but IF the big boys in the music industry, RME, Focusrite, Roland etc and said, "**** you Ms and Apple! We are going to develop a proper, musicically oriented OS". Could it be done?

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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby tonemangler » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:26 am

James Perrett wrote:To the OP - don't be too scared of Windows 10. It is a much smaller jump from Windows 7 to Windows 10 than it was from Windows XP to Windows 7. If you really don't want to make the jump then you could always get a cheap Windows 10 computer for internet browsing and carry on using the Windows 7 machine for music disconnected from the Internet.

Actually, my laptop is the one I am referring to, which is used mainly for banking and other net stuff. I am building a new studio PC so I will have to go the Win 10 route for that. The thing I'm most concerned about are the Win updates, which I've heard can wreak havoc. I'm building a system with the intention of using a thunderbolt AI (Clarett 4Pre) and I've heard stories of Win 10 updates giving problems with the thunderbolt connection. I'll have to do research on optimizing a Win 10 PC with regards to the updates, there must be a way to mitigate the damage. Actually I recently read an article detailing how Microsoft is planning to change the way they handle updates, if after a new update installs and the OS detects conflicts or hardware issues then it will automatically revert to the previous update, at least that is how I understood the article.

To be honest, I prefer having my studio PC connected to the internet. Back in my WinXP days I used an offline system and it was tedious downloading and authorizing software from one computer to another, once I came online it made the task so much easier! Of course if I ever decide to never buy new software (not likely) the offline method would be the best! :thumbup:
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby Mixedup » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:35 am

Wonder if the NHS have moved on from XP since that cyber attack... I bet they went for 7 :headbang: :beamup:
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby Watchmaker » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:48 am

James Perrett wrote:
Watchmaker wrote:OS's really do not need much more in the way of improvements.

Not sure about that...

For audio we really need an efficient real time operating system that can handle multiple incoming and outgoing data streams in a timely and predictable way. While MS and Apple have tried to achieve this with their general purpose desktop operating systems I think these things only really work because of the sheer computing power that we have available these days. We really shouldn't have to run tools like the DPC latency checker to get our programs to work these days.

Fair point. I'd much rather see developer time go to IO improvements that than to yet another game or instant communication with grandma widget but its a tiny minority who prefer quality in the electrical/software engineering over social engineering in their computing experience. also as CS70 notes, the architecture issues are a problem as the path chosen has a massive amount of commitment behind it. I think speculative execution is a prime example of the law of unintended negative consequences.

Dave's comment about music industry designers coming up with an OS - it's always possible but the adoption rate would probably be too low to support development and you'd have to work with hardware teams to build out a supporting chipset.

Until the next disruptive iteration we're stuck with the existing paradigm...perhaps?
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Re: Windows 7's impending death

Postby blinddrew » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:33 pm

scw wrote:
James Perrett wrote:
scw wrote:I plan to upgrade rather than clean install.

Most of the reports of problems have been from people who have upgraded. Clean installs seem more reliable..

That's what I feared James. The thought of reinstalling everything is daunting.
I went the upgrade route on my desktop and laptop and the only hitch was having to use another installation license for my focusrite software - something that has persisted with every major OS update since. Fortunately focusrite have been completely cool about it and just re-zero'd my account whenever I've hit a buffer. Generally in less than 24 hours as well. :thumbup:
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