You are here

Recording Help!

All about the tools and techniques involved in capturing sound, in the studio or on location.

Re: Recording Help!

Postby Wonks » Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:25 am

Or you could simply test all the mics, one at a time, into the same mic channel on the mixer.
User avatar
Wonks
Jedi Poster
Posts: 9822
Joined: Thu May 29, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Reading, UK
Correcting mistakes on the internet since 1853

Re: Recording Help!

Postby ef37a » Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:33 am

Wonks wrote:Or you could simply test all the mics, one at a time, into the same mic channel on the mixer.

Many ways to case this moggy Wonks but I think there is an opinion that the Berry mixer cannot supply full phantom power to all six mics? (OP's post is not clear on that though)

I have my doubts since I think the mics draw very little current (will check mine shortly) and I have never read of these mixers having such a problem and they have sold SO many we surely would have! People LOVE
Behrry bashing.

Spook volts inside the mic read 32.8 per pin so the current draw is 2.2mA per leg, 4.4mA overall. That is more than many capacitor mics but I would think well within the capabilities of the X1222?
Dave.
ef37a
Jedi Poster
Posts: 10753
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 12:00 am
Location: northampton uk

Re: Recording Help!

Postby cyrano.mac » Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:53 am

Forget phantom power. It's limited by it's tech concept, not by brand.

Test the mics. I've bought a few of these Neewer BM800's (to use as a housing for DIY mic projects. Some early ones were too good to use as simply a housing. Some later ones were junk and perfect for the job...
cyrano.mac
Regular
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:00 pm

Re: Recording Help!

Postby G18ALG » Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:53 am

Morning folks,

Once again, thank you all so much for your input. I’m an absolute novice when getting this techie on sound production and your advice has proven invaluable so far.

So, here’s the latest update. I have tested all of the mics, one at a time per channel and they are each fine however when you plug them all in at the same time, this is where the problems start.

My personal opinion is that each mic requires phantom power as they’re condenser mics and the more mics you use at one time, the more the power is split (I know I’m staying the obvious here!). I’m not sure the mixer has enough “juice” to provide adequate power to all six mics in one go and therefore it prioritises some channels over others which creates the unbalanced sounds.

I think in this particular instance, channels 4 and 5 are the worse performing ones (which Sam Spoons has mentioned, has less dB than channels 1-4):

Sam Spoons wrote:The manual says all 6 mic inputs have spook but 1-4 have compressors and +60dB gain while 5&6 have no comp and +40dB.


As I stated earlier, this then means that to be heard on those two channels, I have to whack the gain up to pretty much max to be create the same recording level as mics 1-4 but that means lots of “white noise” being heard.

I think my only, and probably easiest, option is to take the phantom power out of the equation and just use dynamic mics. Given we’re six friends who create a podcast, I want a good, clean sound but I don’t think we’ll be giving our day jobs up anytime soon! :lol:

If you have experience of using dynamics and can recommend one at a good price, do let me know.

Thanks again,
G
G18ALG
Poster
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:28 pm

Re: Recording Help!

Postby The Elf » Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:37 am

Looks like Behringer bashing is still justified with some of their gear.

Do you really need six mic's?...
User avatar
The Elf
Jedi Poster
Posts: 12935
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Sheffield, UK
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Re: Recording Help!

Postby Mike Stranks » Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:06 am

See my earlier post about the Rode M3.

Capacitor (Condenser) mic quality, but can be battery-powered. Punches above its weight.

The problem with many dynamic mics into that mixer is that you'll be struggling with gain on spoken voice. They're designed for on-stage singers, not conversation. (Been there, done that...!)

Or... you could write it all off to experience and start again with the RodecasterPro. Not sure if it'll give you six mics though...
Mike Stranks
Jedi Poster
Posts: 6925
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 1:00 am

Re: Recording Help!

Postby G18ALG » Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:10 am

The Elf wrote:Looks like Behringer bashing is still justified with some of their gear.

Do you really need six mic's?...

Ideally yes because some of the guys are softer spoken than others so sharing a mic wouldn’t really work.
G18ALG
Poster
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:28 pm

Re: Recording Help!

Postby G18ALG » Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:19 am

Mike Stranks wrote:See my earlier post about the Rode M3.

Capacitor (Condenser) mic quality, but can be battery-powered. Punches above its weight.

The problem with many dynamic mics into that mixer is that you'll be struggling with gain on spoken voice. They're designed for on-stage singers, not conversation. (Been there, done that...!)

Or... you could write it all off to experience and start again with the RodecasterPro. Not sure if it'll give you six mics though...

When you say:

“The problem with many dynamic mics into that mixer is that you'll be struggling with gain on spoken voice. They're designed for on-stage singers, not conversation”

Do you mean we’d have to really shout/project our voices to be heard?
G18ALG
Poster
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:28 pm

Re: Recording Help!

Postby Mike Stranks » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:03 am

G18ALG wrote:
When you say:

“The problem with many dynamic mics into that mixer is that you'll be struggling with gain on spoken voice. They're designed for on-stage singers, not conversation”

Do you mean we’d have to really shout/project our voices to be heard?

Well that's the gist of it! :)

What usually happens with mixers in this class - and there are very many with similiar preamp specs ; it's not a Behringer thing - is that to get decent level on conversational discussion and comment when using dynamic mics you have to crank the gain quite high. And then you run the risk of introducing preamp noise into the situation.

I really wouldn't recommend cheaper or stage dynamic mics into that mixer if you have some quiet voices that you need to record.

A couple of years ago I advised a community radio station that was having similar issues with semi-decent stage mics into a Yamaha mixer of similar spec to yours. They upgraded to Rode M3s (but not six!) and did a few other tweaks and it was smiles all round.

Oh; and where are you based? If not too far from me in Cirencester I'd be happy to meet and have a chat...

Mike
Mike Stranks
Jedi Poster
Posts: 6925
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 1:00 am

Re: Recording Help!

Postby ef37a » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:10 am

My experience with Behringer pre amps is limited to the Xenyx 802 and those in the brilliant concept but poorly implememented BCA2000 but both were very good.

It is also my experience with two interfaces, the 8i6 and my KA6 that yes, you need the gain at max to get a f'picked acoustic guitar to say -20dBfs but even in leafy, Npton suburbia at 2am, external noise dominates the electronic noise. The best I can get is around -70dBfs whereas the circuit noise (from the KA6 say) is around -80dB fs.
I also have an A&H ZED10 and that has I would guess the best pre amps for noise/gain but the improvement over the X802 is in fact marginal at best. Certainly will have higher headroom.

In other words, unless OP has a particularly bad sample, that mixer should be usable with dynamics in a normal room in the daytime/early evening. I agree, capacitors should make life easier but noises off can be even more of a problem.

OP may gather from all this that this audio lark is FAR from simple!

In the past I have had a Fast track Pro and a Tascam US 122. Both WERE noisy buggers!

Dave.
ef37a
Jedi Poster
Posts: 10753
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 12:00 am
Location: northampton uk

Re: Recording Help!

Postby Sam Spoons » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:15 am

I don't know the purpose of your podcast, beyond that it's a hobby for you all, but I assume you want to become better at it so some attention to voice delivery would be a benefit, get the quietly spoken members of the team to learn to project a little more and experiment with distance from the mics (halving the distance increases the level by 4x relative to preamp noise). If you can get past the tech issues it will become a more enjoyable experience for you all. Good luck.
User avatar
Sam Spoons
Jedi Poster
Posts: 10388
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 1:00 am
Location: Manchester UK
Finally taking this recording lark seriously (and recording my Gypsy Jazz CD)........

Re: Recording Help!

Postby Mike Stranks » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:42 am

ef37a wrote:
In other words, unless OP has a particularly bad sample, that mixer should be usable with dynamics in a normal room in the daytime/early evening.


But they're not Dave! I've used an 802 for conversational spoken word in a very quiet treated room and needed a front-end preamp to avoid hiss-city. And the mixer was connected to a pro-quality digital recorder.

And picking up on Sam's point... unless you have cardioid mics designed for close-working - dynamic or otherwise - then you get proximity effect. For natural-sounding conversational voice you have to back off the mic somewhat. As a radio presenter I habitually worked the mic at about 0.5 - 1.0 inches. I quickly found for more conversational work I had to back-off to achieve a more natural sound. I do agree that some form of voice coaching may be necessary, but people need to be able to concentrate on content and not technique.
Mike Stranks
Jedi Poster
Posts: 6925
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 1:00 am

Re: Recording Help!

Postby ef37a » Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:02 pm

Ok Mike, I will give you that if they are not on top of the mic and of feeble voice they need better pre amps!

But! OP had better have a pretty quiet place. As has been said before in this forum, "gain is gain". Does not matter whether you get it from a sensitive capacitor capsule or a Cloudlifter boosted dynamic, external noise will get in and the only way to beat it is to get closer and reduce gain.

Dave.
ef37a
Jedi Poster
Posts: 10753
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 12:00 am
Location: northampton uk

Re: Recording Help!

Postby Kwackman » Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:10 pm

It MIGHT be worth considering just using one omni mic?
6 people round a single table, with the louder voices a bit further away than the quieter voices.
It will sound a bit open, but I suspect having 6 mics all faded up at the same time will sound fairly open too?
User avatar
Kwackman
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1411
Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2002 1:00 am
Location: Belfast
Cubase, guitars.

Re: Recording Help!

Postby Sam Spoons » Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:14 pm

My small experience of amateur talking heads is that they expect to be heard with the mic on a table stand at arms length * in front of them so reducing that distance to 12" or even 6" will have considerable benefits while still minimising the problems of proximity effect. As has been said, the closer the better from a signal to noise (from whatever source) POV.

* the biggest involved 21 boxers, promoters and pundits at a press conference, we did have to resort to all manner of vocal mics simply to make up the numbers, IIRC Beta 57/58s were the most effective. Horrible gigs, I'm very glad to be out of all that now.
User avatar
Sam Spoons
Jedi Poster
Posts: 10388
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 1:00 am
Location: Manchester UK
Finally taking this recording lark seriously (and recording my Gypsy Jazz CD)........

Re: Recording Help!

Postby The Elf » Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:18 pm

Kwackman wrote:It MIGHT be worth considering just using one omni mic?
6 people round a single table, with the louder voices a bit further away than the quieter voices.
+1 Maybe one for the the louder speakers and one for the quieter ones - choose your end of the table!
User avatar
The Elf
Jedi Poster
Posts: 12935
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Sheffield, UK
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Re: Recording Help!

Postby ef37a » Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:14 pm

" Horrible gigs, I'm very glad to be out of all that now."

Heh! We set out 4 mics in banquet stands for the principles at an AGM.

MD was fine seated (we were told they all would sit) but then the ******treasurer STOOD UP and he was eight feet tall! To add injury to it he had the voice of a four foot two inch girl.

Sometimes yer just can't win.

Dave.
ef37a
Jedi Poster
Posts: 10753
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 12:00 am
Location: northampton uk

Re: Recording Help!

Postby Sam Spoons » Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:28 pm

And why to the quiet speakers sit back in their chair and the loud one insist in pulling the mic closer :madas: :madas: :madas:
User avatar
Sam Spoons
Jedi Poster
Posts: 10388
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 1:00 am
Location: Manchester UK
Finally taking this recording lark seriously (and recording my Gypsy Jazz CD)........

Re: Recording Help!

Postby G18ALG » Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:35 pm

So I’ve been in touch with the shop that sold me the mixer to say “that thing you sold me doesn’t have enough power for all six mics like you said it would” and they have replied with “Given your description it sounds to me like you have diagnosed this correctly. To ensure that there is enough power to go around we usually recommend using a USB audio interface, something like the 18i20 that has a power supply (as opposed to bus power).”

If only they’d have told me that before!!

P.s. For those that have asked, it is a hobby podcast (six friends chewing the fat on random topics every week) but the lack of sound quality really lets it down at the moment. Feel free to check it out on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube etc. It’s called ‘Don’t Touch The Bugles’. There’s quite a few F Bombs though so be warned!
G18ALG
Poster
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:28 pm

Re: Recording Help!

Postby ConcertinaChap » Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:57 pm

Perhaps you could replace just a couple of mics with dynamics and give those to the loudmouths :)

That might leave enough power for the condensers.

CC
User avatar
ConcertinaChap
Jedi Poster
Posts: 7680
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:00 am
Location: Bradford on Avon
Making music: Eagle Alley, recording music: Mr Punch's Studio
If you want me I'll be down on Sound on Sound on Sound.

PreviousNext

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users