You are here

Recording an Orchestra - Cold

All about the tools and techniques involved in capturing sound, in the studio or on location.

Re: Recording an Orchestra - Cold

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:42 am

Arpangel wrote:
Hugh Robjohns wrote:The four-mic array is basically a pair of cardioids (or hypo-cardioids) spaced at about 47cm, with a pair of omni outriggers spaced at 67cm, all four being angled outwards at 45 degrees from the centre line.

The cardioid/hypo-cardioid spacing can be adjusted to suit the acoustics, source width, and required stereo recording angle, but the omnis should always be 10cm further out to each side.... according to Tony, anyway. :-)

Balance the directional and omni pairs to taste...

H

That's interesting, I take it the two outer most mic's are Omni's? and the two in the centre are cardioids?

Highlighted...
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 24876
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Re: Recording an Orchestra - Cold

Postby ConcertinaChap » Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:17 am

Hugh Robjohns wrote:The four-mic array is basically a pair of cardioids (or hypo-cardioids) spaced at about 47cm, with a pair of omni outriggers spaced at 67cm, all four being angled outwards at 45 degrees from the centre line.

Lovely. Thanks, Hugh. I've got the mics for that and I'll give it a whirl sometime.

CC
User avatar
ConcertinaChap
Jedi Poster
Posts: 7684
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:00 am
Location: Bradford on Avon
Making music: Eagle Alley, recording music: Mr Punch's Studio
If you want me I'll be down on Sound on Sound on Sound.

Re: Recording an Orchestra - Cold

Postby Mike Stranks » Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:21 am

ConcertinaChap wrote:
Hugh Robjohns wrote:The four-mic array is basically a pair of cardioids (or hypo-cardioids) spaced at about 47cm, with a pair of omni outriggers spaced at 67cm, all four being angled outwards at 45 degrees from the centre line.

Lovely. Thanks, Hugh. I've got the mics for that and I'll give it a whirl sometime.

CC

I'm only half-remembering this, but I recall TF stating that Andre Previn in particular was very averse to multi-mic/stand/cable setups when there was an audience present. Hence this array...
Mike Stranks
Jedi Poster
Posts: 6925
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 1:00 am

Re: Recording an Orchestra - Cold

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:02 pm

Hypo-cardioids at 47cm spacing and 90 degree mutual angle provide a stereo recording angle of about 70 degrees (+/-35 degrees), while spaced omnis at 67cm is about 99 degrees (+/-49.5 degrees).

Cardioids with the same 47cm spacing and angle gives an SRA of about 61 degrees (+/-30.5 degrees).

So it requires the width of the orchestra to be reasonably narrow and compact, especially if the array has to be placed fairly close.

Narrower spacings of the directional mics will give wider SRAs -- for example, a 22cm spacing of hypo-cardioids (with 90 degree mutual angle) gives a 120 degree SRA, or 33cm is a 90 degree SRA.

For Cardioids the equivalent spacings are 14 (SRA=120) and 24cm (SRA=90).
H
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 24876
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Re: Recording an Orchestra - Cold

Postby jimh76 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:54 pm

Hi Peeps,,

Fist of all a big thank you to everyone for their insightful input.

I'm in Stockport near Manchester (UK).

I feel I should explain that I kind of ambushed the people doing the concert, as the concert was taking place already, and I rang the person who organised it and said I would come down and record for free. I love recording, but don't get much action......I also don't claim to be an expert, but feel things like this are a really good way of learning (mostly by making the mistakes)

I obviously understand that to them, it's a performance and not a recording session, and I have kind of hijacked them.

I stated to them that for the performance, the limitations as to the mic stands etc might not get the best recording for them, and my hope is that they'll let me do an actual recording session proper after they have done this one.

I'll possibly be doing a rehearsal session first in which case, anything goes with regards to mic stands. I think I will keep it simple though ( although I don't want to go the mono route really). Like Hugh says, possibly the Rode NT1s left & right (high as they can go) and the SE X1A central, with possibly the SDC spot mics on the piano in stereo.

I'm looking forward to it, and if it sounds pants, then no one has really lost anything.

Thanks,

Jim.
jimh76
Poster
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:29 am

Re: Recording an Orchestra - Cold

Postby Aural Reject » Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:26 pm

When is it?
User avatar
Aural Reject
Frequent Poster
Posts: 915
Joined: Fri May 02, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Lancashire born, living in Yorkshire :s

Re: Recording an Orchestra - Cold

Postby Mike Stranks » Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:07 pm

jimh76 wrote:Hi Peeps,,

Fist of all a big thank you to everyone for their insightful input.

I'm in Stockport near Manchester (UK).


Sorry! Too far off my patch, otherwise I'd have been pleased to help.
Mike Stranks
Jedi Poster
Posts: 6925
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 1:00 am

Re: Recording an Orchestra - Cold

Postby Aural Reject » Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:16 pm

Mike Stranks wrote:
jimh76 wrote:Hi Peeps,,

Fist of all a big thank you to everyone for their insightful input.

I'm in Stockport near Manchester (UK).


Sorry! Too far off my patch, otherwise I'd have been pleased to help.

It’s a way away from home for me...but if it can be tied in with a visit to the kids in Woodford and I’m not working...then I might be able to do something.
User avatar
Aural Reject
Frequent Poster
Posts: 915
Joined: Fri May 02, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Lancashire born, living in Yorkshire :s

Re: Recording an Orchestra - Cold

Postby jimh76 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:33 pm

Hi peeps

It's on Saturday 28 September. I'd be recording the rehearsal in the afternoon and depending on how that goes record the concert in the evening. I've not got final confirmation yet so I may be told that it's a no go and to do the next 1 so don't do any planning for me Aural.

As I say I think it's a casual for me and as long as I don't completely muck it up could be something I regularly do for them.

Cheers for everyone's input.

Jim
jimh76
Poster
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:29 am

Re: Recording an Orchestra - Cold

Postby Aural Reject » Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:51 pm

jimh76 wrote:Hi peeps

It's on Saturday 28 September. I'd be recording the rehearsal in the afternoon and depending on how that goes record the concert in the evening. I've not got final confirmation yet so I may be told that it's a no go and to do the next 1 so don't do any planning for me Aural.

As I say I think it's a casual for me and as long as I don't completely muck it up could be something I regularly do for them.

Cheers for everyone's input.

Jim

I’m in Morocco atm but back by then.

In theory I’m only scheduled for edits that weekend - though I’m waiting for some dates off a band for some in-rehearsal recording before the 12th October which I’ll get after their gig tomorrow evening.

If you come up with an alternative mic plan or approach that you think would benefit from access to better mics just prod...I can cover most eventualities barring a filmic in shot balance.
User avatar
Aural Reject
Frequent Poster
Posts: 915
Joined: Fri May 02, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Lancashire born, living in Yorkshire :s

Re: Recording an Orchestra - Cold

Postby Arpangel » Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:30 am

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
Arpangel wrote:
Hugh Robjohns wrote:The four-mic array is basically a pair of cardioids (or hypo-cardioids) spaced at about 47cm, with a pair of omni outriggers spaced at 67cm, all four being angled outwards at 45 degrees from the centre line.

The cardioid/hypo-cardioid spacing can be adjusted to suit the acoustics, source width, and required stereo recording angle, but the omnis should always be 10cm further out to each side.... according to Tony, anyway. :-)

Balance the directional and omni pairs to taste...

H

That's interesting, I take it the two outer most mic's are Omni's? and the two in the centre are cardioids?

Highlighted...

That diagram is very confusing, it gives the impression that one colour is cardioid, and the other colour is omni, but that doesn't make sense,
User avatar
Arpangel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1877
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2003 12:00 am

Re: Recording an Orchestra - Cold

Postby hooty2 » Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:31 am

Pitching in here with possible loan of panamic cathedral stand if gig not too far away
hooty2
Regular
Posts: 193
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:00 am

Re: Recording an Orchestra - Cold

Postby Wonks » Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:58 am

hooty2 wrote:Pitching in here with possible loan of panamic cathedral stand if gig not too far away

It's in Stockport.
User avatar
Wonks
Jedi Poster
Posts: 9873
Joined: Thu May 29, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Reading, UK
Correcting mistakes on the internet since 1853

Re: Recording an Orchestra - Cold

Postby jimh76 » Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:14 am

Thanks for everyone's help on this.

I'll update on how it went. Thanks for the offer of equipment, but I'll see how I get on with my stuff

Jim
jimh76
Poster
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:29 am

Re: Recording an Orchestra - Cold

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:26 am

Arpangel wrote:That diagram is very confusing, it gives the impression that one colour is cardioid, and the other colour is omni, but that doesn't make sense,

I didn't draw it - -I didn't have the time -- I just borrowed it. The colours indicate the channels and the illustrated polar patterns indicate the, er, mic polar patterns! ;)

H
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 24876
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Re: Recording an Orchestra - Cold

Postby Arpangel » Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:44 am

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
Arpangel wrote:That diagram is very confusing, it gives the impression that one colour is cardioid, and the other colour is omni, but that doesn't make sense,

I didn't draw it -- I didn't have the time -- I just borrowed it. The colours indicate the channels and the illustrated polar patterns indicate the, er, mic polar patterns! ;)

H

I didn't think you drew it! My god, have I forgotten to take my medication this morning?
:blush:
I didn't even notice the polar patterns, my fault agin, I am going (gone?) mad, you'll just have to bare with me...
User avatar
Arpangel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1877
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2003 12:00 am

Re: Recording an Orchestra - Cold

Postby Wonks » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:01 pm

Wibble.
User avatar
Wonks
Jedi Poster
Posts: 9873
Joined: Thu May 29, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Reading, UK
Correcting mistakes on the internet since 1853

Re: Recording an Orchestra - Cold

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:24 pm

Wonks wrote:Wibble.

... is the name of our dog! Or Miss Wibble, to be accurate!

Wibble on the hill.jpg


(13 month-old Red-Fox Labrador bitch, in case you were wondering!)
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 24876
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Re: Recording an Orchestra - Cold

Postby Aural Reject » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:32 pm

jimh76 wrote:Thanks for everyone's help on this.

I'll update on how it went. Thanks for the offer of equipment, but I'll see how I get on with my stuff

Jim

It’s a wise move in a lot of ways - especially if you’re hoping for repeat business, because you don’t want to overpromise for future projects based on the gear you have to hand.

For example a recent high profile band in my field recently hired a studio who market themselves as specialists in the area. What they haven’t said is that there was an external engineer imported, few if any of the studio’s own mics were used, it’s being edited by an external academic and mixed by a third party studio...the only thing really brought to the party was the room...and guess why the mixing is required? Reading between the lines, although this product will be a great success, it potentially creates a road full of potholes for people who come after expecting the same.

Similarly I was in the lucky position that I could borrow stuff when I started out (regularly) so I essentially created a family sound with preferred (very expensive!) toys in various places. In order to continue that family I’ve bought my own set of everything....and it hasn’t come cheap...but I can continue to deliver based on the contents of my own boxes...

So...bravo for going for it, and best of luck!
User avatar
Aural Reject
Frequent Poster
Posts: 915
Joined: Fri May 02, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Lancashire born, living in Yorkshire :s

Re: Recording an Orchestra - Cold

Postby ConcertinaChap » Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:04 pm

Hugh Robjohns wrote:(13 month-old Red-Fox Labrador bitch, in case you were wondering!)

I knew it! This place is going to the dogs.

CC
User avatar
ConcertinaChap
Jedi Poster
Posts: 7684
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:00 am
Location: Bradford on Avon
Making music: Eagle Alley, recording music: Mr Punch's Studio
If you want me I'll be down on Sound on Sound on Sound.

PreviousNext

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users