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A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby Martin Walker » Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:03 pm

I've used a Ctrlr editor for some years now with my steampunk Shruthi synth, and it's wonderful.

ShruthiCtrlr.jpg


However, my experience also is that when working with existing editor templates, the version of Ctrlr you use can be crucial - in fact, so many people had problems trying to get the Shruthi editor to work with more recent builds that I've ended up hosting the particular elderly version it needs on my web site so that other Shruthi owners can download it :headbang:


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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:03 pm

Yeah, that's a very good point Martin. I was lucky in that the panel I was most interested in seems to work fine with the current version.

Generally speaking I think it pertains more to the GUI scripting side of the app, so any existing panel that doesn't work can always be cannibalised for sysex formatting at any rate, and applied to a new panel of your own devising.
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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby ramthelinefeed » Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:25 pm

n o i s e f l e ur wrote:
As mentioned by Agharta, it may not be multitouch-capable, but for what you've said it's for it should suffice.

Yeah I doubt multi-touch capability real matters - the sort of thing I'd use this for is off-line programming/sound-design (i.e. making patches) - MIDI is a serial protocol so you can only splurge one parameter change down the MIDI cable at a time in any case, particularly when they're SysEx ones.
You're still effectively programming sounds by selecting and tweaking one parameter at a time, just with the single-parameter-access menus they have on the front panel - it's just way quicker to select the parameters and tweak them with they're all set out on a touch screen in front of you.
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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:35 am

Hey, just following up on this to ask how you got on?

From my own testing it doesn't appear to respond to multi-touch, and in fairness I wasn't expecting it to - but it does work adequately well in single-touch mode, as an FYI to anyone reading this and interested in a solution.
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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:50 pm

Okay, I need to post a correction!

Further testing reveals it DOES actually respond to multi-touch - great news for those that want a more realtime performance capability.
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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby The Elf » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:05 pm

Don't know about anything specifically Windows-based, but I've build my own MIDI controller panels in MIDI Designer on the iPad when needed. Until last week I ran it on an old iPad 2, but I've just grabbed a cheap 32GB iPad 6 that works just as well, albeit via a horrendous 30-pin to lightning adapter - such is Apple's way of doing things... :frown:
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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:20 pm

MIDI Designer looks to have evolved a bit since I looked at it last, but maaaan is it ever still ugly! Which probably doesn't matter too much once it does the job.

As much as I criticise Lemur, I'd pick it over MD any day though, as once you get deeper into the "scripting" you can do some very advanced stuff. In fact, to call it merely scripting does a great disservice to the power of the app and the work of many of the projects / templates people have programmed.

It's just a pity the devs haven't been able to modernise the thing, as it truly would be absolutely peerless in that case . . . and in many regards it actually is, regardless.

Elf, in your experience - how does MD handle complex SYSEX operations? This has always been one of Lemurs weaknesses, due to the limitations on how one stores data in templates etc?
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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby The Elf » Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:23 am

I hate almost everything about MIDI Designer, from the confusing tabbed page layout, to the absolutely impossible-to-understand design saving, loading and sharing system. I feel as if I need to completely re-learn it every time I fire it up. I truly wish they could simplify it, and give it some prettier controls. I think that a large part of the trouble I had getting going with MD is that the web page seems to assume you already know everything about it before you even start. I've tried to show others how to use it, but within minutes they are utterly stuck.

TBH I really wish that another software designer would come to the rescue and create a more friendly piece of software with the same capabilities.

But the end results work really well, and nobody else is going to create me an editing panel for some of the obscure bits 'n' pieces I use.

It's been a while since I needed to create a sys-ex control, but I don't recall it being anything more onerous than any other control.
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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby James Perrett » Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:03 pm

The Elf wrote:TBH I really wish that another software designer would come to the rescue and create a more friendly piece of software with the same capabilities.

But the end results work really well, and nobody else is going to create me an editing panel for some of the obscure bits 'n' pieces I use.

It's been a while since I needed to create a sys-ex control, but I don't recall it being anything more onerous than any other control.

You make it sound almost as difficult to use MIDI Designer as it would be to create an editor from scratch using something like Visual C++.
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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:38 pm

The Elf wrote:I hate almost everything about MIDI Designer, from the confusing tabbed page layout, to the absolutely impossible-to-understand design saving, loading and sharing system. I feel as if I need to completely re-learn it every time I fire it up. I truly wish they could simplify it, and give it some prettier controls. I think that a large part of the trouble I had getting going with MD is that the web page seems to assume you already know everything about it before you even start. I've tried to show others how to use it, but within minutes they are utterly stuck.

TBH I really wish that another software designer would come to the rescue and create a more friendly piece of software with the same capabilities.


Heh, you've summed up my feelings toward Lemur pretty well there!

Regarding MD, I looked at the documentation briefly just to get a feel for how easy (or not) it would be to create the sorts of complex stuff one can in Lemur . . . but it didn't look to be the case. In fact the documentation made it seem a bit complicated to do fairly simple stuff. That said, it's probably *still* less onerous than programming Lemur.


James Perrett wrote:
You make it sound almost as difficult to use MIDI Designer as it would be to create an editor from scratch using something like Visual C++.

Well, Lemur "scripting" gets close to "real" programming once you move beyond the basics of throwing a few controls onto a page and attaching / targetting some MIDI / OSC. I definitely think the time spent on mastering the damn thing for those who aren't already programmers would be more profitably spent on learning C++ . . . and I've seen many actual programmers express a lot of frustration with Lemur - as being as hard to learn as a real language but without the capability of one, and badly let down by archaic limitations in the runtime. Oh, and the booby-traps present in the editor app.

The Elf wrote:
But the end results work really well, and nobody else is going to create me an editing panel for some of the obscure bits 'n' pieces I use.

It's been a while since I needed to create a sys-ex control, but I don't recall it being anything more onerous than any other control.

Oh, it's not hard to create a sysex control in Lemur. The issues people were having was in creating full-fat sysex editors, capable of sending and receiving patch (bank) dumps etc.

So that gives you some idea of the ambition and scope of what can be attempted. It's just control over timing and having to construct data-structures out of 2D arrays etc tended to hobble these attempts.
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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby The Elf » Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:37 pm

As one who finds OO languages utterly baffling and syntactically irritating (I once knew enough to write a 'Hello World' in Java) I can say that programming in MD is FAR easier than delving into C, or any of it's variations!

To put this in context, I'm a BASIC/COBOL/Assembler kinda guy. ;)

So I can cut MD some slack. But my... it could do with a re-think.
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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby Eddy Deegan » Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:02 am

n o i s e f l e ur wrote:Oh, it's not hard to create a sysex control in Lemur. The issues people were having was in creating full-fat sysex editors, capable of sending and receiving patch (bank) dumps etc.

Indeed ... which is where the use of Javascript is invaluable in Max of course.

Just found a couple of old development pics of my Lemur + Max editor for the Yamaha Motif XS:

Image

Image

Image

These were relatively early in development, but sadly I hit the limitations of the Lemur and semi-lost interest in continuing. I did progress it further at the time, and ended up with an extensive Max application which had dozens of popup windows for editing various parameters, though not all of them ended up being 'live'.

One problem I did solve at the time was that of the huge amounts of SysEx flying around all over the place. This was mostly done using JS widgets, but also in the Max 'circuits' logic. It was certainly capable of querying the XS, getting a full system dump and initialising the application such that the patches and performances on the XS were synchronised.

Edits in the application were also synchronised in real-time with the XS itself.

The last image above shows the 'BulkQuery' window there, which is in the process of receiving the dump from the XS, parsing it and making the data in it available to the various other windows.

I still have all the Max project files and relate Javascript though, so if anyone wants it to build on/use as reference just let me know.

A project I would very much like to revisit at a future date, only next time I'd write it as a framework such that you could plug different profiles into it for different synths, and I'd use C/C++ and OpenGL instead of a rapid development system like Max, which would make it massively smaller in size and far easier to distribute and maintain.

The Elf wrote:As one who finds OO languages utterly baffling and syntactically irritating ...

I hear you, especially on the 'syntactically irrirating' front. Not a fan of OO programming myself, though sometimes I have to dip in against my will!
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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:10 am

Eddy Deegan wrote:
I still have all the Max project files and relate Javascript though, so if anyone wants it to build on/use as reference just let me know.


Hmmm . . . sounds tempting Eddy! A very generous offer, if I may say so.

I have a couple of Yamaha hardware boxes I wouldn't mind being able to edit from the comfort of my screen. It'd mean having to learn javascript, but as that's something I've wanted to do for a while something like this could provide the incentive very nicely.

As it happens, I too reached the conclusion WRT to Lemur and its limitations as a basis for more complex applications - in that it's a superb app for building touchscreen GUIs but the heavy lifting is better done in something like Max (which I'm no expert in!). The last few years have seen some developments in working around Ableton Live sysex limitations too, so integration on that front (M4L) is doable now too.

Should I PM you about this, or do you want to post a link to Wetransfer or Dropbox or something?
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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby Eddy Deegan » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:38 am

n o i s e f l e ur wrote:
Eddy Deegan wrote:I still have all the Max project files and relate Javascript though, so if anyone wants it to build on/use as reference just let me know.
Should I PM you about this, or do you want to post a link to Wetransfer or Dropbox or something?

I'll post a link to it later today (might be after work). :thumbup:

For what it's worth I'd not really done that much in Javascript before either. I didn't use any 'fancy' OO shizzle with the JS, I just wrote it as if it was C translated into JS.
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Re: A Windows-equivalent for Hexler's TouchOSC

Postby n o i s e f l e ur » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:03 am

Good stuff! :)

I'm as proficient in C as I am in JS, so the distinction between a straight C-style transposition versus using OO concepts would be lost on me anyway hahaha!

I've reverse-engineered the odd M4L device and I grok Lemur shiznits . . . I daresay with the help of some online resources I can maybe make a fist of it. Maybe.

Cheers Eddy.
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