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MIDI 2.0!?

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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby Eddy Deegan » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:38 pm

All very encouraging!

I think my initial reservations were broadly based around the feeling that MIDI 1.0 is one of the most 'wholesome' technical innovations around, and if they can do anything like as good a job with 2.0 then I'll be a happy bunny.

The transition period should be interesting ...!
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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby ef37a » Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:16 am

Too late and I am too knrd to read the links but to my mind there is only one logical connector for "new MIDI" ? The RJ45.
The cables are cheap and you can get them at Rock Botton type shops. Almost certainly well below CAT5e spec but easily good enough for this application. Patch bays can be very compact and wired with an IDC tool.

TRS is an audio connector (as was DIN) RJ45 IS data.

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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby Eddy Deegan » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:17 am

ef37a wrote:Too late and I am too knrd to read the links but to my mind there is only one logical connector for "new MIDI" ? The RJ45.
The cables are cheap and you can get them at Rock Botton type shops. Almost certainly well below CAT5e spec but easily good enough for this application. Patch bays can be very compact and wired with an IDC tool.

TRS is an audio connector (as was DIN) RJ45 IS data.

Dave.

Well, if it's physical link independent then it's up to the manufacturers of course. I would expect they'll standardise on something.

STP ethernet cables are great from a cabling point of view, and RJ45 is a compact and efficient connector but I'm not a fan of the RJ45 in many implementations because I've encountered a number of circumstances where a slightly dodgy plug (or more specifically, the little plastic lever you press to release it) causes no end of problems trying to extract the connector from the socket, and also if you trip over a cable terminated with a plugged-in RJ45 you can be in for a world of hurt trying to decouple it afterwards.

We need better RJ45 terminators basically. Maybe Neutrik or someone could come up with something a little more robust than the injection-moulded levers on conventional CAT-x cables if STP is adopted widely for MIDI 2.0!
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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby ef37a » Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:14 am

Hi Eddy, one of those situations I think where, to misquote Flog It, "quality matters".

In my last "proper" job I was responsible for building test beds for CATx modules and these had thousands of RJ45S plugged in and out of them weekly. Jammed plugs were very rare but then these were good quality plugs fitted with an AMP crimp tool. Often the even more rugged shielded plug.

If you do get a jam the latch can be released with a small screwey, about 2mm AF. The jacks are a "blind" hole there so no danger of electrical zapping.

There has always been a sprinkling of posts re dodgy connectors. I had some XLR 3's jam really well..Who said "There is very little in this world that cannot be made a little cheaper and a little worse"?

Just a thought. Where you have an expensive bit of kit it is worth making up "sacrificial" stubs so the onboard connectors never get strained. I did this at Blackstar for the AP test rig. Even relativley cheap kit like a cable tester wil benefit because it is a PITA if the sockets break.

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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby The Elf » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:05 am

I never had a problem with the 5-pin DIN, but why on earth didn't they utilise all five connections so we didn't have to use two cables all the time? MIDI in on the inner pins and out on the outer pins, for example. That always seemed like a missed opportunity to me...
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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby desmond » Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:58 pm

No they needed to be 8ndependant, you’re not always connecting the same devices bidirectionally. Or else you’d need breakout cables, but it would be a confusing mess...
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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby The Elf » Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:16 pm

desmond wrote:No they needed to be 8ndependant, you’re not always connecting the same devices bidirectionally. Or else you’d need breakout cables, but it would be a confusing mess...
A receiving instrument that didn't want to receive would just ignore the incoming stream. Works for USB!
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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby Dave B » Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:30 pm

Dave Smith always pushed for midi to be a 'star' topology, but the Roland bods kept pushing back that they wanted the 'thru'. They got their way which is why we have all these din cables everywhere.

One of the interesting thins about midi over usb is that it finally brings the concept back to Dave's original idea - a star topology.
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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby Folderol » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:19 pm

When the MIDI spec. was set there was no such thing as USB. Also the instrument manufacturers were thinking in terms of controllers direct to synths without any form of hub - for which separate connectors make sense. Computers were expensive, unreliable and barely entered into their thoughts. Dave Smith was significantly ahead of his time in that respect.
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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby The Elf » Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:55 pm

They didn't need to time travel to see the benefit of a bi-directional cable. MIDI was based on RS232, which was itself bi-directional. The pins were sitting there waiting to be used. It could have solved us all this two-cable mess we ended up in - and the difference between 'in' and 'out' seems to baffle many people - myself included on occasions! :lol:

Atari used the spare pins as a MIDI Thru on the Atari ST, which caused a lot of trouble, since by then many cables had the spare pins shorted to avoid confusion over which pins were the correct ones! The number of times I saw that one...

All water under the bridge and out to sea, though. Let's hope the backwards compatibility works as seamlessly as it always does... ;) :beamup:
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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby N i g e l » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:45 pm

Yamaha had their PS/2 port style, 1 cable MIDI. Did that have much impact on equipment or was it just Yamaha ?
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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby DGL. » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:59 pm

N i g e l wrote:Yamaha had their PS/2 port style, 1 cable MIDI. Did that have much impact on equipment or was it just Yamaha ?
Wasn't that a serial (either RS-232 (PC) or RS-422 for MAC) 'host' connector, 8 pins, quite a few manufacturers used that connection. My Korg 05R/W has this connector.
The only use of PS/2 connectors I know of for MIDI was the front panel sockets on the Creative Audigy PCI cards.
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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby N i g e l » Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:54 pm

All the Reface's have a PS/2 connector for MIDI. They do come supplied with an in/out breakout cable.
Thats the only thing ive got that's single cable.

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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby DGL. » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:22 am

N i g e l wrote:All the Reface's have a PS/2 connector for MIDI. They do come supplied with an in/out breakout cable.
Thats the only thing ive got that's single cable.

image is click-able & zoom-able....

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Forgot about the Reface series (despite having their PSS cousin), though the way they work is different to what creative had in teh fact that creative didn't combine the two in/out connectors in to one PS/2 style using one for each, I guess, using the same pinout as an AT-PS/2 keyboard adaptor.
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Re: MIDI 2.0!?

Postby N i g e l » Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:04 pm

The Elf wrote:They didn't need to time travel to see the benefit of a bi-directional cable. MIDI was based on RS232, which was itself bi-directional. The pins were sitting there waiting to be used. It could have solved us all this two-cable mess we ended up in - and the difference between 'in' and 'out' seems to baffle many people - myself included on occasions!

I think having seperate cables allows for a chain configuration, perfectly acceptable in the 80's, although because the electronics are asymmetric (on THRU), there is a limit of 3 or 4 synth modules from a master keyboard before the data gets slewed and erronious
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