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The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Fri May 29, 2020 2:31 pm

:clap: :thumbup: :D
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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby Dr Huge Longjohns » Fri May 29, 2020 4:06 pm

actual calculus. Which is fun,

How the lockdown must be flying past in the Logarhythm household!
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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby blinddrew » Fri May 29, 2020 7:17 pm

There was a time, round about my second year in Uni, when I briefly got Calculus.

aaaand then it went.
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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby Dr Huge Longjohns » Fri May 29, 2020 7:31 pm

You make it sound like something a quick course of penicillin might clear up.
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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby blinddrew » Fri May 29, 2020 7:36 pm

that's a fair reflection of how I felt about it.
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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby Folderol » Fri May 29, 2020 7:53 pm

I'm with Drew on this subject, well most higher forms of maths actually :cry:
... and I'm supposed to be the lead developer of a soft-synth :?
If you ever get bored Ben, we could always do with a hand :lol:
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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby Logarhythm » Fri May 29, 2020 9:16 pm

I'm flattered, Will, but I can promise that neither you nor Yoshimi's users want me anywhere near anything involving code. In my case a moderate level of familiarity with a few bits of maths really doesn't translate into any sort competence when it comes to programming :lol:
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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby ManFromGlass » Fri May 29, 2020 10:21 pm

I’m curious then, Logarhythm -
Do you see a direct connection between your fondness of maths and your music?
I ask because I find the absence of maths (via the DAW) means I can work in the music field, my maths skills being weak.
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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby DC-Choppah » Sat May 30, 2020 6:08 am

Dr Huge Longjohns wrote:People who espouse the use of external analogue summing mixers often talk about the '3D' effect that these devices create. Somehow the individual instruments or sounds seem to have a space around them that's hard to describe but once you hear it, it's very attractive and hard to miss. Airwindows and other software manufacturers claim to be able to recreate this effect in the box with console emulations and so forth. Here's the Airwindows example which demonstrates it very well if you listen on monitors or phones:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8eSFNgSpuo

The smile he gets on his face when he turns on the Console5. Happiness!


I can hear the individual voices unmasking when he turns on Console5. Cool!

I think what is happening is that normally (digital linear mixing) is that if two sounds occupy the same frequency, they will mask each other.

But put them through the nonlinear, time dependent mixer instead, and the process creates new overtones, but the overtones from one sound do not lie in the same frequency as the overtones from the other sound. So now we have overtones that are associated with one of the sounds and are not masked by the other.

So as one of his voices wobbles and shifts we can follow it individually.


It seems that all DAWs should have this kind of nonlinear mixing built in!

AVID should license his software and make it part of ProTools.
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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby Logarhythm » Sat May 30, 2020 10:23 am

Dr Huge Longjohns wrote:
actual calculus. Which is fun,

How the lockdown must be flying past in the Logarhythm household!
Logarhythm towers is currently a household of one. I'll leave you to make any post hoc ergo propter hoc inferences about whether this is in any way related to the statement you've quoted from my previous post :bouncy:


ManFromGlass wrote:I’m curious then, Logarhythm -
Do you see a direct connection between your fondness of maths and your music?
I ask because I find the absence of maths (via the DAW) means I can work in the music field, my maths skills being weak.
Going way off topic, but since we've sort of solved(ish) the original query...
I'll also add that I fear my abilities have been somewhat overhyped :blush:

To answer your question - I'm not really sure. I certainly don't think I "actively" use it, but brains are very strange things, and despite many hours of contemplation I've never really reached a conclusion as to whether it's just me in here, or if some of my brain is something else, or indeed which bit is even "in charge".
For both maths and music I've always found that the best stuff is simply thrown at the conscious me as a solved / "self evident" thing. It's both useful and highly frustrating!
Music doesn't matter so much as there doesn't need to be a "why", but trying to explain why a solution or equation is right generally requires a bit more substantiation than "brain gave it me while I was having a shower this morning and it apparently just knows it to be correct" (actual source of a key part of my master's thesis...).

I was certainly more musically creative and prolific when I was using lots of relatively complex maths (I use very little now), so it's tempting to infer that my brain likes the relationship between the two, almost in some sort of symbiotic fashion, but there are too many variables to really reach a firm conclusion on this - at the time I was younger, had far more free time, fewer responsibilities, my mental health was definitely worse, my level of sobriety was considerably more variable etc.

FWIW I also think that a lot of people who are "bad" at maths really aren't - it's an impression that I believe a lot of people are left with because they struggled with it at school, probably because we all need to be taught it in quite different ways to find the one to which we relate. Much of it is about patterns, and this is something brains seem to have evolved to be quite good at, so the challenge is finding out how to convey it in a way that a given individual's brain can engage with - many teachers simply don't have the time (and/or possibly the skill, in my experience) to do this. As an example, I blame my dad for most of my ability with numbers, and he failed O-level maths (fell out with the teacher a couple of years before his exams, because they couldn't explain why 1+1=2...) and still believes he's terrible at it, even though it's quite obvious that our brains work in very similar ways, and indeed learning from him more than any of my school teachers got me to the point where I could read physics at university...
To some degree music and maths are both about patterns and how things interrelate, so if you get one then you can probably get the other. Finding out how to arrive at that point is a more significant challenge, though :mrgreen:
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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby Folderol » Sat May 30, 2020 10:47 am

Very interesting, what you say about patterns. When attempting to teach people a bit about understanding electronic drawings I always make a point of telling them they need to develop a mental image of what is going on in the various devices. It doesn't matter how 'correct' the image is, just that it gives them a reasonably accurate idea of what to expect coming out, knowing what is going in.

This is especially true of logic diagrams!
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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby Dynamic Mike » Sun May 31, 2020 1:08 am

Folderol wrote: When attempting to teach people a bit about understanding electronic drawings I always make a point of telling them they need to develop a mental image of what is going on in the various devices. It doesn't matter how 'correct' the image is, just that it gives them a reasonably accurate idea of what to expect coming out, knowing what is going in.

I have a very rudimentary knowledge of electronics but try to picture the little I know in my mind in terms of fluid dynamics. Essentially I'm looking at a circuit diagram in the way a plumber would see it. I'm aware that above a certain level the analogy breaks down but it just heps me to visualise it.

People who think they don't understand mathematics are usually just bad at arithmatic. They use mathematics to make decisions all day long and only really struggle when numbers are involved.
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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby Dr Huge Longjohns » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:59 am

The inability of today’s yoof to do mental maths is shocking though, including my two teenagers. But the best one was in WHSmiths buying three items all of which were under a pound. When the lad on the till said ‘3.60’ I literally couldn’t get him to understand this was impossible even without the actual figures getting involved!
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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby Hugh Robjohns » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:48 am

:lolno:
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Re: The analogue-summing '3D' effect: what actually is it?

Postby Dynamic Mike » Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:20 am

Dr Huge Longjohns wrote:The inability of today’s yoof to do mental maths is shocking though, including my two teenagers. But the best one was in WHSmiths buying three items all of which were under a pound. When the lad on the till said ‘3.60’ I literally couldn’t get him to understand this was impossible even without the actual figures getting involved!
Back when I smoked I asked for 80 B&H in a petrol station. After 5 minutes on his calculator the yoof looked up and asked 'is that 4 packs?'
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