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Do I need a Gate for this?

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Re: Do I need a Gate for this?

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:37 am
by The Elf
blinddrew wrote:The other thing you could try is a slow acting compressor. Set it to allow the attack and initial boom to come through but then clamp down on the tail. Can be a bit more subtle than a gate.
You could also follow it with a gate - the compressor in this context will help the gate do its job.

Re: Do I need a Gate for this?

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:43 am
by TNGator
blinddrew wrote:The other thing you could try is a slow acting compressor. Set it to allow the attack and initial boom to come through but then clamp down on the tail. Can be a bit more subtle than a gate.


I had given this a quick try but wasn't getting the hang of it. But its an option worth chasing though.

Re: Do I need a Gate for this?

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:55 am
by TNGator
The Elf wrote:
blinddrew wrote:The other thing you could try is a slow acting compressor. Set it to allow the attack and initial boom to come through but then clamp down on the tail. Can be a bit more subtle than a gate.
You could also follow it with a gate - the compressor in this context will help the gate do its job.


Sorry...my goof. I didn't read your post properly. No I didn't actually try this. So the gate followed by a compressor. OK..will give that a try. Thanks bro.

Re: Do I need a Gate for this?

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:06 pm
by The Elf
TNGator wrote:
The Elf wrote:
blinddrew wrote:The other thing you could try is a slow acting compressor. Set it to allow the attack and initial boom to come through but then clamp down on the tail. Can be a bit more subtle than a gate.
You could also follow it with a gate - the compressor in this context will help the gate do its job.
Sorry...my goof. I didn't read your post properly. No I didn't actually try this. So the gate followed by a compressor. OK..will give that a try. Thanks bro.
Wrong way around.

In this context, a compressor with a slow attack/quick release will increase the dynamic range, and this can help you find a suitable threshold for the gate.

So, compressor first, gate second.

Re: Do I need a Gate for this?

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:29 pm
by Sam Spoons
Don't lose sight of the fact that getting it right at source is always better than fixing it in the mix. Is there any reason why you can't simply use more appropriate tom samples?

Re: Do I need a Gate for this?

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:45 pm
by TNGator
Sam Spoons wrote:Don't lose sight of the fact that getting it right at source is always better than fixing it in the mix. Is there any reason why you can't simply use more appropriate tom samples?

To be honest Sam i wouldn't disagree with you at all in relation to the "fix it in the mix" mentality. I think we are all on that page for sure. Yes you're right, I'll keep looking for a better tom plug in. But so far, what Ive got in my downloads library all seems to have that trailing end. So if i dont find a better sound it would be good to know that I do at least have options of somehow sculpting the sound of what I have. If I can make the tom sound Im looking for I can always save it as a custom kit.

Re: Do I need a Gate for this?

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:49 pm
by Sam Spoons
:thumbup:

Re: Do I need a Gate for this?

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:50 pm
by ManFromGlass
another thing that might be driving you crazy is the pitch of the toms clash with the key of the tune. I often don’t realize this about my drum choices and then the drums bug me for a reason I can’t put my finger on.

Re: Do I need a Gate for this?

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:30 pm
by TNGator
ManFromGlass wrote:another thing that might be driving you crazy is the pitch of the toms clash with the key of the tune. I often don’t realize this about my drum choices and then the drums bug me for a reason I can’t put my finger on.

You know its a funny thing...but its something we never consider. We know we have to tune the guitar and the bass. We know we have to play those instruments in the right key and the right chords. But not being a drummer, tuning drums is something that never occurs to me. I do actually try to use the tuning knob on the drums sometimes. Sometimes it kills but other times it works. But sadly in this instance the tuning trick isnt doing it :( But great suggestion bro. Ta.

Re: Do I need a Gate for this?

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:17 pm
by TNGator
TNGator wrote:
ManFromGlass wrote:another thing that might be driving you crazy is the pitch of the toms clash with the key of the tune. I often don’t realize this about my drum choices and then the drums bug me for a reason I can’t put my finger on.

You know its a funny thing...but its something we never consider. We know we have to tune the guitar and the bass. We know we have to play those instruments in the right key and the right chords. But not being a drummer, tuning drums is something that never occurs to me. I do actually try to use the tuning knob on the drums sometimes. Sometimes it kills but other times it works. But sadly in this instance the tuning trick isnt doing it :( But great suggestion bro. Ta.

Actually guys. Did anyone ever try taking a mounted tom sound you like and tune it down to simulate a floor tom? Its really the floor tom sound Im having problems with. The mounted tom single shots are ok by and large.

Re: Do I need a Gate for this?

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:28 pm
by The Elf
TNGator wrote:Actually guys. Did anyone ever try taking a mounted tom sound you like and tune it down to simulate a floor tom? Its really the floor tom sound Im having problems with. The mounted tom single shots are ok by and large.
It's how we did it back in the days of Akai samplers!

Sometimes it works, sometimes not. Try it!

Re: Do I need a Gate for this?

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:48 pm
by TNGator
The Elf wrote:
TNGator wrote:Actually guys. Did anyone ever try taking a mounted tom sound you like and tune it down to simulate a floor tom? Its really the floor tom sound Im having problems with. The mounted tom single shots are ok by and large.
It's how we did it back in the days of Akai samplers!

Sometimes it works, sometimes not. Try it!

LOL Never venture never gain right? For years people asked Led Zep how they got that great drum sound. Did you use a sound proof room? A specially designed studio?
A sub marine? Answer: Nah....we set up the drum kit in the hall at the bottom pf the stairs and had one mic hanging from the ceiling. :headbang:

Re: Do I need a Gate for this?

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:30 pm
by CS70
The long tail is quite normal when you mic real floor toms.

It's simply a case of automate the volume on the decay with a slow fade so that it fits the rhythm of the song. A gate tends to bee too imprecise, but it's worth the time to do the individual hits.

If you then want atmosphere, simply add a huge reverb and EQ it - toms sound epic that way!

Re: Do I need a Gate for this?

PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:34 am
by Eddy Deegan
TNGator wrote:... But so far, what Ive got in my downloads library all seems to have that trailing end. So if i dont find a better sound it would be good to know that I do at least have options of somehow sculpting the sound of what I have. If I can make the tom sound Im looking for I can always save it as a custom kit.

Have you considered resampling what you already have? If you were to record some hits (at the various tunings and/or velocities you use) as an audio track, then you could use fader automation/compression/gates/whatever to work on those single hits until they are sounding right, bounce/render the result as a new audio track and chop it into new 'samples' to drop in as a replacement for the originals.

Just a thought.

Re: Do I need a Gate for this?

PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:10 am
by TNGator
Eddy Deegan wrote:
TNGator wrote:... But so far, what Ive got in my downloads library all seems to have that trailing end. So if i dont find a better sound it would be good to know that I do at least have options of somehow sculpting the sound of what I have. If I can make the tom sound Im looking for I can always save it as a custom kit.

Have you considered resampling what you already have? If you were to record some hits (at the various tunings and/or velocities you use) as an audio track, then you could use fader automation/compression/gates/whatever to work on those single hits until they are sounding right, bounce/render the result as a new audio track and chop it into new 'samples' to drop in as a replacement for the originals.

Just a thought.
Oh i see where your going. Use the actual midi hit but freeze the track so it becomes like an audio file. Edit it and save it as tom single shot. Good idea. Worth a shot bro... ta :)

Re: Do I need a Gate for this?

PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:12 am
by n o i s e f l e ur
On the subject of re-tuning drums, there's this;

https://www.waves.com/plugins/torque

Re: Do I need a Gate for this?

PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:47 am
by Wonks
TNGator wrote:Oh i see where your going. Use the actual midi hit but freeze the track so it becomes like an audio file. Edit it and save it as tom single shot. Good idea. Worth a shot bro... ta :)

If you can find it on your computer, make a direct copy of the audio file of the tom hit. You can then apply whatever processing you want to cut down the decay tail, export the result, then use the resulting file in your sampler.

If you want to replace the tom sounds, then you'll need to find them anyway.

Note that if the drum sampler uses a round-robin SysNote that if the drum sampler uses a round-robin system, you'll need to edit all the samples involved.

I'd probably just draw my own volume automation envelope so I had full control of the sound, rather than use a gate or compressor.

Re: Do I need a Gate for this?

PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:46 am
by CS70
Sam Spoons wrote:Yes it does but the overheads pick up a more natural amount of resonance, the close mic picks up much more and need to be controlled or it sounds unnatural. A gate can help avoid muddiness. I prefer the sound of a kit miked with overheads and kick/snare mics but when the environment or nature of the band make that impossible close mics are necessary.

Indeed! The tom mics are there to get a nice ‘thud’ and would be likely be gated on a live setting (without mics, you would not hear larger than life toms, but not much decay either).

Re: Do I need a Gate for this?

PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:03 pm
by TNGator
Wonks wrote:
TNGator wrote:Oh i see where your going. Use the actual midi hit but freeze the track so it becomes like an audio file. Edit it and save it as tom single shot. Good idea. Worth a shot bro... ta :)

If you can find it on your computer, make a direct copy of the audio file of the tom hit. You can then apply whatever processing you want to cut down the decay tail, export the result, then use the resulting file in your sampler.

If you want to replace the tom sounds, then you'll need to find them anyway.

Note that if the drum sampler uses a round-robin SysNote that if the drum sampler uses a round-robin system, you'll need to edit all the samples involved.

I'd probably just draw my own volume automation envelope so I had full control of the sound, rather than use a gate or compressor.

Yeah it sounds like just using automation on the sample and saving it as a new name might be the easier option. I dont know what round robin is anyway :(

Re: Do I need a Gate for this?

PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:17 pm
by Wonks
It's where you have several samples for the same note, and each gets played in turn, so it doesn't sound quite the same each time - more like a real drummer (or whatever instrument the sampler is playing). Typically three samples per MIDI note.