You are here

196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

For anything relating to music-making on Windows computers, with lots of FAQs. Moderated by Martin Walker.

Moderator: Moderators

Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby Mowens800 » Fri May 07, 2010 12:33 am

kolakube wrote:
@ Mowens

If there is absolutely no point what so ever in 192Khz, I struggle to think why it has been invented. I accept your point re how high the human ear can hear but perhaps with 192Khz there will be more detail? I dont know, as said im not that techy.

There has got to be some use for it in pro audio. more detail perhaps?

Have a look at sampling theory. You can hear 20Hz - 20kHz. Nyquist says to replicate that accurately you need to sample double the highest frequency involved, hence the 44.1 kHz standard. Sample rates above this are to accuracy represent frequencies above this, which as you can see from my post above is unnecessary as 44.1kHz would be perfectly acceptable.

Infact, you are doing the worst thing you can for quality. You have a 4 grand set-up and want to use a free driver or a cheap soundcard to hit a number on the output which as you say yourself, you don't understand the technical side but just assume it is better. I didn't look at the DAC closely, but is that not a soundcard. So really what you need is the correct driver for this device?
Mowens800
Regular
Posts: 235
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:00 am

Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby Kolakube » Fri May 07, 2010 7:44 am

Hi,

Yes its a cheapo stock soundcard. Believe me I posted many threads on here asking if there was any difference sound quality wise between my motherboards sound chip and a UAD quad and the answer I kept getting was no, not when used with a DAC as this is what makes the quality of the sound.

Then on selling my MOTU 24 which is an ok soundcard and going back to my mobo's built in chip with ASIO4ALL there was no audible difference which backed up what the guys on here had been telling me.

It seems the only real point to buying a soundcard is for better connections if you wish to record from the outside world, or DSP. Honestly, Latency with ASIO4ALL 2 is not an issue and if thats the case with my pants built in sound chip it must be the same for everyone.

So, im perfectly happy with the sound chip I have as I have no need to record from the outside world and also feel native plugs are as good as DSP these days.

I honestly though my £1000+ MOTU 24 would have sounded far better than an ASISO4ALL 2 chip but im living proof they don't.

Anyhow, if everyone on here feels the 192Khz rate is nothing more than a marketing gimmick then I really and truly feel duped and ripped off.

I have read other arguments for such a high rate that agrees the human ear cannot hear that high but that jitter is moved up to frequencies higher than the human ear can hear so you get alot less jitter at higher sample rates than you do with lower ones.

Whats anyones thoughts on this?

All as I am after is the best sound I ca possibly get for monitoring on the budget I have.
User avatar
Kolakube
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1420
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:00 am
Location: Geordieland

Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby jayzed » Fri May 07, 2010 8:29 am

"If there is absolutely no point what so ever in 192Khz, I struggle to think why it has been invented. "

Two reasons off the top of my head:

1. Marketing. Instintively, bigger numbers are better on a spec sheet. We also tend to assume that if something can 'do' 192 then it must be able to 'do' 44.1/48 better. Not necessarily true.

2. The increase from 44.1 to 96 demonstrably showed improvements in the past. So, we assume, 96 to 192 must also be better? Again, there's no scientific reason it should. The anti-aliasing filters will be way out of the hearing range in both cases. Plus, the damage done by brickwall filters to enable 44.1 in the past meant that 96 sounded better. Today, the filters are quite a bit better and not the problem they once were.

Some people record in 96 because they feel they get a better result. Most people don't because either the difference is too small to bother with or they can't hear a difference with their converters.

I haven't met (or read about) anyone who bothers going to 192. Sure, there may be someone who feels they get a better sound but I would be sceptical that any differences could be heard in proper listening tests when comparing 96 and 192. In fact, I have never heard a quality difference between 48 and 96 (I work in post, hence the 48) using the various converters we have. These aren't high end but OK - digidesign 192s, Apogees etc. I am convinced I can hear some differences sometimes, but I couldn't say which rate is better quality and the difference is not enough to convince me it's not my head. I haven't done any ABX trials, only adhoc listening tests.

In fact, I have read arguments that say the higher clocking precision required at ultra-high rates (192, 176.4) can actually degrade audio. Dan Lavry, who makes highly regarded converters doesn't even bother with 192 on his boxes, I believe, because of this issue. I'm not an expert in this area but if I understand correctly jitter can actually be more pronounced with higher rates. 192 does not move jitter 'higher' at any rate, according to my understanding. I think you might be thinking of shaped dither here. If someone knows more about this area I'd be happy to be corrected.

Spinal Tap was a spoof, guitar amps going to eleven started as a joke. Unfortunately for those of us who read marketing materials it's become received wisdom.
User avatar
jayzed
Frequent Poster
Posts: 510
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 1:00 am
Location: North London

Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby Mowens800 » Fri May 07, 2010 8:31 am

kolakube wrote:
Whats anyones thoughts on this?


Well, you couldn't hear a difference between your £1k MOTU and the free ASION4all. So I'm willing to guess you won't hear any improvement with the jitter being shifted into higher frequencies. Surely a good digital system should be relatively jitter free anyway.

Your system is only as good as your lowest quality component. I would just switch everything to 44.1kHz, 24bit and get making music. You can always buys a cheap sound-card at a later date, I'm willing to bet you would be disappointed if you do.

(I think I've used 196 repeatedly above when I meant 192 :beamup:)
Mowens800
Regular
Posts: 235
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:00 am

Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby Remeniz » Fri May 07, 2010 8:49 am

kolakube wrote:@ Remeniz Productions.

Yes thats exactly it mate. I want to play back at 192Khz.

I know how to set up my DAW though. And my DAC. The problem is no matter what I try ASIO4ALL doenst seem to want to go over 48Khz. I am guessing this is a limitation of ASIO4ALL. If so I need to try another soundcard but dont want to spend much as the DAC makes the stock card on my Mobo sound pro enough.

Does the Apogee DAC have it's own ASIO drivers?
Remeniz
Regular
Posts: 175
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:00 am

Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby bmn » Fri May 07, 2010 9:07 am

According to the allmighty Internet (and common sense) there is an asio extension for the apogee mini-dac.

So if you're on firewire (and not spdif etc) your internal sound card is not used.
bmn
New here
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:00 am

Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby Kolakube » Fri May 07, 2010 9:12 am

@ Jayzed.

Ok, if 44 Khz is good enough then that is what I will use. As said though, I cant help but feel I have paid a grand for something that should have been say 750 without useless features. This hasn't demonstrated Apogee in a positive light to me.

This is very similar to digital cameras and mobile phones. ALl I hear is my camera is better as it has more mega pixels. Yeah and a pants lens meaning its a pants camera. As in anything, the weakest link is how to relate how strong a product is.

Back to audio, is 44Khz is no stronger than 196 then ill stick to 44. Still feel diddled though.

@ Mowens.

I started the 196 thing off in the thread title, so blame me fella.

@ RP

It comes with an install disk. And I have to select it as opposed my real tech sound chip in the ASIO4ALL control panel. However Ableton Live 8 just sees ASIO. It doesn't mention the DAC or the real tech.

@ BMN

Hi, aside from what is on the actual Apogee website the only model of the DAC you can buy these days is the firewire model. All the others have been deleted, the USB certainly has.

Are you saying im not using my stock sound chip at all as I connect with firewire? Thats not how it seems to portray in my DAW and there ASIO4ALL control panel. Be interested to know this for sure.

Again im not that tech but if no sound card is used what makes the sound as my apogee is just a DAC? Anyone??
User avatar
Kolakube
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1420
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:00 am
Location: Geordieland

Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby ken long » Fri May 07, 2010 9:42 am

Hi Kola,

Apogee dropped PC support so you probably will have a hard time finding the correct driver. Try contacting them? They have great customer support IMO.

As for sampling at high (88.2 +) rates, you may find some DSP performs better. Some plugins and notably noise reduction will benefit. Other than that, its the quality of the converter that counts and an Apogee at 44.1 will sound better than a stock sound card at any rate.

ken
User avatar
ken long
Frequent Poster (Level2)
Posts: 3405
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:00 am
Location: Somers Town
I'm All Ears.

Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby Pete Kaine » Fri May 07, 2010 10:01 am

kolakube wrote:
I honestly though my £1000+ MOTU 24 would have sounded far better than an ASISO4ALL 2 chip but im living proof they don't.

I think I'm starting to follow now....

http://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/audio/asus_xonar_essence_stx_-_pci-e_audiophile_soundcard/1

I fitted one to my gaming/video editing & playback machine a few weeks back which prior to that was running the onboard realtek. The bottom end is far tighter and less muffled with far better seperation in the middle and top end (it's wired into some Genelecs).

I'd had it laid about for ages and was about to ebay it but the's not a chance I'm going to part with it now as I'm really impressed with the reproduction quality.
User avatar
Pete Kaine
Frequent Poster (Level2)
Posts: 3182
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Manchester
Kit to fuel your G.A.S - https://www.scan.co.uk/shop/pro-audio

Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby James Perrett » Fri May 07, 2010 11:16 am

What would really help is some specifics to save us trawling back through older threads.

What motherboard?
What sound chip on the motherboard?
What DAC?
What software?

In theory what you are trying to do should be perfectly valid provided that the onboard sound chip handles high sample rates transparently.

As others have said, 192kHz has no advantages for audio over 96kHz and the added unnecessary bandwith just serves to introduce more noise into the system.

If a plug-in works better at a high sample rate then it should do the necessary sample rate conversion internally so the sample rate that you send it shouldn't be an issue. Unfortunately, not all plug-in coders think that way but this doesn't mean that analogue conversion should be done at a high sample rate.

Cheers

James.
User avatar
James Perrett
Moderator
Posts: 10574
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:00 am
Location: The wilds of Hampshire
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration. JRP Music Facebook Page

Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby Exalted Wombat » Fri May 07, 2010 12:13 pm

kolakube wrote:@ Jayzed.
Again im not that tech but if no sound card is used what makes the sound as my apogee is just a DAC? Anyone??

What makes the sound? The DAC, I suppose. Before that, it's a stream of numbers. But then, after that, it's just a varying voltage. So really, your speakers make the sound.

I'm afraid you've tacked on a high-priced audiophile toy to a very ordinary (but possibly, for your needs, perfectly competent) system. Is it new enough to be returned?

I still don't understand just what you're doing with your computer. Just playback? What source material do you have at 192KHz? Do you have the sort of very expensive amp/speakers/room that would allow some audiophiles (many would say audiophools) to think they heard a difference at 192KHz?
Exalted Wombat
Jedi Poster
Posts: 5737
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:00 am
Location: London UK
You don't have to write songs. The world doesn't want you to write songs. It would probably prefer it if you didn't. So write songs if you want to. Otherwise, dont bore us with beefing about it. Go fishing instead.

Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby jayzed » Fri May 07, 2010 9:09 pm

I would venture to say that Apogee increasing their max sample rate to 192 from 96 would add only a miniscule cost to their product.

As modern AD/DA stuff uses lots of oversampling anyway, (to move the anti-alias and reconstruction filters way above human audio bandwidth) the extra cost to apogee would probably only be an extra setting on the switch, an extra LED and maybe an extra line of code or two in their DSP.


I don't think Apogee is ripping you off here, really.
User avatar
jayzed
Frequent Poster
Posts: 510
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 1:00 am
Location: North London

Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby Kolakube » Fri May 07, 2010 9:11 pm

@ Wombat.

Not sure how to take your post. Its comes across very patronizing.

I certainly would not class the Apogee DAC as a toy. Its not the best DAC on earth but its far from a £100 toy.

You consider Focal Twins as very ordinary?????? Mate, your wired up to the moon. Yeah there is better I wont argue but ordinary???

If you still don’t understand what I am trying to do then yet again you haven’t read this thread properly. For a start I have mentioned my amp/speakers and room a few times and you still have zero clue to my kit.

There is no need to return anything as the DAC has made my cheap and inferior Focal Twins sound even better again so someone as inferior to yourself such as myself is a happy teddy anyhow.


@ James

I’ve been talked out of 192K as everyone is saying its nothing more than a marketing gimmick. Just wished I had known what seems to be common knowledge.

It’s a shame when SOS reviewed the DACs in their round up they never mentioned anything over 44Khz is not worth having as its makes no odds. Id have thought this would have been invaluable info regarding this. I mean, this is why I buy SOS, so I don’t have to know everything. I can just read up.

@Pete

It seems to be the DAC that makes the difference mate. Perhaps a £10 soundchip will be poorer than a £100 PCI card without using a dedicated and separate DAC but with a DAC to re clock everything the soundcard seems to make no diff at all.

@ Ken

As said mate im not going to bother re 192 or anything over 44khz anymore.
The DAC really does make a difference though so either way it’s a wining situation for me and my productions.
I just hoped upping to 192Khz would allow for even clearer sound than what I already have as I have only started incorporating my DAC into my set up this week.

With the DAC at 44Khz though I can hear far more detail in my mixes. Reverb and delay tails seem to exist separately to the rest of the mix. Making it far easier to tweak to perfection. Its like there is 25% more detail if that makes any sence.

Either way I am very happy with my set up. My mixes have never been better nor transferred better onto other systems. I cant say it wasn’t worth the money.

But Apogee have pee’d me off dangling a 192Khz carrot. Overall though this is just a blemish in the true scale of things.
User avatar
Kolakube
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1420
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:00 am
Location: Geordieland

Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby Exalted Wombat » Fri May 07, 2010 10:24 pm

Yes, I missed the post where you described your monitors. That end of the system seems very good. And rightly so, whether you're recording string quartets in an ideal acoustic with the best mics, or whether you're doing a mash-up of loops and beats which are almost deliberately lo-fi, it's a very good idea to be able to hear just what noise you're making!

But "very ordinary" really described the computer end of your setup. Does "Live 8" mean Ableton? You have no audio input, so where are you getting the material from? Is any of it recorded at 192KHz? All the Apogee can do (you haven't been very specific, but I THINK you have the Mini-DAC, which is output-only) is convert what you offer it into audio. Have you any 192KHz source to offer it?

Looking at the Apogee site I found this little gem:

"I'm using the Mini-DAC and Mini-Me as the primary I/O device in the Radio Paradise studio. Our intent is to produce the world's best-sounding Internet radio stream, so I'm a real stickler for audio quality. Absolutely nothing I've ever used can touch these little goodies. They're an essential ingredient in the mix that makes me glad to come to work every day."

Remind me, what was the bandwidth of his Internet feed again? :-)
Exalted Wombat
Jedi Poster
Posts: 5737
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:00 am
Location: London UK
You don't have to write songs. The world doesn't want you to write songs. It would probably prefer it if you didn't. So write songs if you want to. Otherwise, dont bore us with beefing about it. Go fishing instead.

Re: 196Khz from ASIO4ALL?? Is this possible?

Postby Kolakube » Sat May 08, 2010 8:43 am

@ Wombat.

I write electronic music only. Everything I do is now produced in the box (as said.) There is nothing to record from the outside world. Nothing at all, I don’t know why you have this impression as I never gave it. I dont work with guitars or drums other than samples that I have bought or have been given to remix whatever.

The reason I have bought the very best equipment I can possibly afford (and then some) is exactly like you say, that is to be able to hear every sound I make and the ones I don’t thus making the best possible mixes I can.

For decades I have lusted after hardware synths and got no where. I was more building a studio for a photo shoot or to impress other synth nerds than make music. I have since learned a vital lesson. THE most important aspect of any studio is being able to hear what you are doing. Otherwise you are trying to paint to Mona Lisa with sunglasses on outside at night.

Now, as said since I got shot of all my hardware last month has created much space in my room. So I have had it decorated. I couldnt be bothered to set everything up perfect to work around the decorators so set up a skeleton system if you will for a week or so. Since then I have sold my MOTU 24 as I require NO inputs at all now never mind 24. A MOTU 24 sells second hand for £750 or mine did so naturally id rather put that cash to other things as opposed keep if for the sake of it.

My only soundcard on selling the MOTU was my stock sound chip. I was running this with the ASIO4ALL 2 driver that to be honest removes the need for an ASIO card unless you want quality connections and DSP.

Now the decorators have gone I have put all of my kit together now including my DAC which I had previously omitted with my skeleton set up.

A DAC s a very plug and plug device much like monitors or so I thought. It simply fits in the audio chain and off you go and off I went and it added 25% clarity on my system that I was already very very impressed with.

However it had 192Khz wrote on the front and I was only using 44. Naturally I wanted the best sound I could get for my cash and so thought 192 was going to be 4 x better than 44Khz.

Hence my question and hence this very thread.

I now know thanks to this thread and the people (including yourself) replying that my DAC with a setting of 44Khz is as good and actually far more efficient than a DAC at 192Khz

Lastly, please dont write Ableton Live 8 out and think it is a toy sequencer. For years (Since Cubase 2 on the Atari!!!!!) I used cubase and nothing else. Perhaps I write drastically different material to yourself but if you deal with loop based audio and midi and write any style of dance music than Ableton Live is amazing. I discovered it after 15 years of Cubase usage and felt it was like a breath of fresh air. Of course it is nothing more than a tool. Whatever works for the individual, but in dance music circles many a finished product is wrote totally on Live.
Dont mean to brag but I have enough cash at the moment to buy any sequencing package due to the selling of all my hardware. Still I choose only Live 8.
User avatar
Kolakube
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1420
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:00 am
Location: Geordieland

PreviousNext